Screeching Cymbals, micing position problem?

[darbo]

I did a live recording recently and it came pretty well apart from the fact the Cymbals give off an extremely harsh sounding ringing sound, very noticeable when the crash is hit and you can hear it ring out, I mean its real nails against the blackboard sound, its horrible.

Q.1 - What caused this? I had this problem before any processing so it must be something to do with the mic positioning.

Q.2. - Is there anyway of trying rectify this problem at the mix stage, I'll tried single out the frequency with a paragraphic EQ, with no luck.

Help Appreciated

[Hugh Robjohns]

Digital clipping, mic overload, or nasty sounding crash cymbal are the most likely culprits.

EQ is really the only solution, but it will be hard to find and remove the offending regions without screwing the sound up completely.

hugh

[Jack Ruston]

Several possible issues...

1. The mic might just be too bright or not quite right for the kit used

2. The position, as you say, could possibly be better (but it wont necessarily eliminate the problem while giving you the sound you want on the rest of the kit.

3. The drummer might be hitting the cymbal too hard

4. The cymbal itself might sound like that.

IME it's usually a combination of 3 and 4. For a spaced overhead pair, normally you wind up with the overheads fairly close to the cymbals by necessity. Now if you move them from a position directly over the cymbals, through 45 degrees off, round to directly to the side, you'll hear quite big variations in the harmonics. But if the cymbal sounds harsh and horrible you'll still get that. What often happens is that the cymbal just isn't nice, and seems to square off when hit hard. It can be impossible for a drummer to hit cymbals softly but the drums hard at the same time. The best cymbals for recording are ones which dont square off and are not too loud. The best drummers for recording are ones who can keep the cymbals controlled but hit the kit hard at the same time if needs be.

You wont fix the sound in the overheads after the fact. Try ducking the overheads at that point in the mix and putting a nicer cymbal sample in on top to see if you can get away with it.

J

[The Elf]

There are many, many possibilities. Can you tell us (a lot!) more about the environment, source instruments, methods and gear you used. A link to an example file would get you a better chance of some meaningful answers.

[darbo]

Thanks for the replies

The environment was a Medium sized pub packed out to the last, overheads were a spaced pair of AKG C414's, the band I'd probably call acoustic rock. I'm gonna upload a clip of the audio now so you's can have listen.

[darbo]

This is a very short clip of a section where its really bad.
I soloed the Cymbals and took off any processing so this is the raw audio I recorded.

http://rapidshare.com/files/378847949/SOS_CymbalsExampleSoloed.wav.html

[Hugh Robjohns]

I soloed the Cymbals and took off any processing so this is the raw audio I recorded.

That 'raw audio' has got some pretty aggressive compression going on...

hugh

[darbo]

I was just taking a fed from a desk, probably was a compressor or limiter or something on it before I recorded it.

[darbo]

Digital clipping, mic overload, or nasty sounding crash cymbal are the most likely culprits.

so its got nothing to do with a compressor or limiter, just nasty clipping somewhere along the signal chain.

Thanks Hugh

[thescientist]

was the desk running the FOH sound too? Were you getting a separate mix from that?

[darbo]

The overheads weren't been sent over the PA, to small a venue, faders down I was taken a direct out (prefade)

[Hugh Robjohns]

so its got nothing to do with a compressor or limiter, just nasty clipping somewhere along the signal chain.

I couldn't hear any evidence of clipping in the stereo clip you posted.

Limiting, and to a lesser degree compression, can certainly emphasise the kind of sisue you're complaining of. I didn't mention them before because you implied the signals sounded bad before processing. It now appears they were being processed at source in some way.

hugh

[Jack Ruston]

Having had a listen to your file I'm sure it's the cymbal. Some cymbals have nasty rings like that. Some square off. Some are just too heavy to wobble nicely. This is the reason that producers spend tens of thousands of pounds buying their own cymbals, drums, guitars, basses, cabinets etc. Unfortunately not everything records well, and musicians cant always be expected to know what will work. A lot of drummers buy cymbals which are specifically designed to be loud, because they feel that the cymbals will get lost at a gig otherwise. Those cymbals particularly do not tend to record well.

J

[darbo]

so its got nothing to do with a compressor or limiter, just nasty clipping somewhere along the signal chain.

I couldn't hear any evidence of clipping in the stereo clip you posted.

Limiting, and to a lesser degree compression, can certainly emphasise the kind of sisue you're complaining of. I didn't mention them before because you implied the signals sounded bad before processing. It now appears they were being processed at source in some way.

hugh

I'll have to track down the other engineer and find out what the story is.

Anyway thanks everyone for your input

[Mixedup]

Sounds to me like its a not so nice cymbal being struck hard ?and maybe some compression/limiting on the desk or recording device?

You won't make it brilliant, though you might make it better... Rather than just EQing, have you tried a dynamic EQ? It might sound less intrusive, and enable you to perform more radical 'surgery' without such strong unwanted side-effects.