Just took ownership of a pair of HD800's !

[Kevin Nolan]

Just have to share this with the forum - I just yesterday took ownership of a pair of Sennheiser HD800 Headphones. I found an Italian supplier who sold them on Ebay for 830 Euro including post and packing. They came from the Sennheiser factory to the supplier and straight to me.

No new clothes for me and cheapo food for a few months to clear the credit card!

One reaction - Holy Mother of God Tonight!

These are shockingly good. I own HD600s, HD650s and, as excellent (and totally reliable sonically to highest professional standard); the HD800s are in a totally different league.

I can't believe Headphones can be this good. I can't stop laughing when listening to various music CDs. They are JAW-droppingly good.

The clarity, the detail, the imaging - absolutely beyond superlatives. It’s like a particular sound-colour in the HD650s suddenly reveals itself as an entire spectrum of shades blended to one sound. Like 64 million colours instead of 64 thousand colours for a computer screen.

I'll have to go back and listen to my entire CD collection. I've listened to :

Daphnis and Chloe Suite 3 (Ravel / Karajan)
Seal "Bring it On"
Sting "If I Ever Lose My Faith in You"
Jarre “Equinoxe Part IV”
Jon&Vangelic "He is Sailing"
Air “Moon Safari”

Everyone of them sound awesome, fresh and new. I know it’s a cliché but it’s true - there is clarity, detail and even new instrument lines I didn’t know existed in these tracks.
Even listening to my own music sounds different - it's like that feeling when hearing stereo for the first time.

I can never go back. There's a world of sound detail and depth I didn't know existed even with Genelec 1030A and JBL 4412's in my project studio). I feel privileged to be able to hear sound that is simply unobtainable any other way - I had better look after these headphone for dear life!

I read a review saying that the HD800s were expensive to deliver the extra 10% beyond the HD650s. I love and swear by the 650s; but the 800s are about 1000% beyond, not 10%. They are simply in a different league.

I strongly urge everyone here who loves music production to try these out (note I've no allegiance to Sennheiser). I'm just telling you from first experience that there's a whole world of sonic experience you're missing out on.

Studying orchestral pieces with score (for film scoring study) will bring a whole new level of clarity and detail. Mixing and mastering my own music has just been given a cast-iron guarantee that what I hear is as good as it’s going to get (any short comings will not be down to monitoring) but most of all I can see a whole new 'sonic space' available to me to experiment with.

In case I haven't made it clear - this is the best audio acquisition I have ever made.

Just finished listening to Africa by Toto (while tying this post). I think I know what it was like to be in the control room when they mastered that!

Kevin.

[The Elf]

I felt this way when I first tried my AKG K701s, so I'm salivating at the thought of what you must be hearing in these super-cans!

Congratulations! Are you about to join the (small) legion of we damned who do all their mixing in cans?

[* User requested deletion 2 *]

I remember the first time I heard music on a pair of headphones - I was about 12 and a friend brought one of the first cassette Walkmans back from the States. I know, I know - cassette reproduction and those horrible orange foamed slip on cans.

But compared to crap Woolworths Music Center ™ hi-fi or mono radio (this was the very early 80's, kids) it sounded so good, so detailed, so 'in your head', I just about wet myself.

I'd love to relive that first sensation of 'discovery' - might just be worth a kidney and a bollock......

[hollowsun]

Jon&Vangelic "He is Sailing"

Rod Stewart ruined that record if you ask me!

[Kevin Nolan]

Reid - Go for it!! sure isn't that what Credit Cards are for?? (at least I have to believe that now!).

Seriously though - I remember someone on this forum a few years back saying something I thought was brilliant - "worry about sources and destinations and the rest will look after itself". I always thought that was brilliant advice for audio purchases; and the "destinations" bit of my set up just got a whole lot better, despite the crazy cost.

Hollowsun - I almost asked if Rod Stuart did a cover of that song and did it badly! (you remind me that years back in a folk group I played noise/wave effects on a Juno106 for a rendition of I am Sailing in a church. I touched the Amp Fader and of course it instantly pushed the volume up very high, like an explosion. Some kid shouted from the congregation "Hey mister, I think your ship is sinking".

[* User requested deletion 2 *]

Kevin, have you got a link to the supplier that sold them to you?

And did you have to do a major upgrade to your headphone amp to get the best out of them? Any tricky impedance issues to be wary of, or are they 'normal' in that respect?

[Kevin Nolan]

The ebay seller is known as "stereo2000snc". Try that ans see how you get on. I haggled a bit to get to the E830.

I have't upgraded the headphone amp yet (-cost!). I'm using them with my O1V96 and Mackie 32-8, straight. I will look at a proper headphone amp (when refunds refresh!).

I'll look over the impedance specs and post them again but the impedance is different to the HD650s leading to different (lower) volumes but completely workable (given the ability of the mixers I own). So I still can look forward to the harnessing the best of these with a proper headphone amp.

Kevin.

[. . . Delete This User . . .]

STAX

nyahhh nyahhhh

[John Willett]

STAX

nyahhh nyahhhh

Ahhh, but have you listened to the HD 800?

Given that Stax electrostatics, because of the light diaphragm, are superb in the mids and highs, they do tend to lack bass.

The HD 800 does have a good bass end and the ring diaphragm and large voice-coil means that it drives very well and you don't get the diaphragm break-up that you get with normal dynamic headphones.

I would guess that the Stax and the HD 800 will end up about equal with the HD 800 winning in the bass and the Stax winning at the top - maybe we should compare.

[Guest]

I strongly urge everyone here who loves music production to try these out (note I've no allegiance to Sennheiser). I'm just telling you from first experience that there's a whole world of sonic experience you're missing out on.

Tried them.

Compared to HD650s - big improvement
Compared to K701s - improvement
Compared to Stax SR007II with SRM007t or, better still, Gilmore Blue Hawaii - not bad but a way to go yet

For dynamic cans, the HD800s are excellent but the (electrostatic) Stax are better so the HD800s aren't so much of a revelation if you're used to the Stax. If you want a reference headphone at a premium price, they're not a bad buy; if you want several pairs of more than good enough headphones for mixing or playbacks on sessions, they're too expensive for anyone but lottery winners (who should buy Stax/Gilmore rigs and stop worrying about it anyway). I didn't bother buying them as, for the price of the HD800s, I could (did) get 4 pairs of K701/2 and have change left over. These are more than good enough for balancing a mix, I'm much happier taking them on location, and if I really feel a need for something better, I have the Stax. Though the HD800s are good, I'm sure you'll enjoy them.

STAX

nyahhh nyahhhh

Ahhh, but have you listened to the HD 800?

Yep. Didn't buy them. I might at some point but for the reasons above, they just didn't make sense for me. I'm very happy with my AKGs for day to day and already have the Stax if I want something for 'best'. I now have several pairs of AKGs which go out with me on sessions (and if I need more there's always my HD650s and HD600s though I haven't used them for a couple of years and now find it harder to relate to them so it won't be me listening to them).

Given that Stax electrostatics, because of the light diaphragm, are superb in the mids and highs, they do tend to lack bass.

With the normal Stax amp/energiser (SRM007t) I'd agree. They also lack the ability to go really loud, cleanly (though, with extended use, they could still cause hearing problems). However, with one of the Gilmore driver designs (either solid state or valve), both of those problems are solved - suggesting that the problem is with limitations of the amp/energiser rather than the cans themselves. Going to the KGSS or Blue Hawaii from the SRM007t gives a cleaner sound with better LF reproduction and much cleaner high level drive.

The HD 800 does have a good bass end and the ring diaphragm and large voice-coil means that it drives very well and you don't get the diaphragm break-up that you get with normal dynamic headphones.

I would guess that the Stax and the HD 800 will end up about equal with the HD 800 winning in the bass and the Stax winning at the top - maybe we should compare.

I have compared.

The HD800 are very good and perhaps are a valid choice against a 'standard' Stax setup, being much as you describe, but if you factor in a good 3rd party amp/energiser for the Stax there's a much bigger gap between the two. However, if you're using them on location (as I know John is) then the HD800s are less hassle than the Stax. A half decent headphone amp can be had in a much smaller box than a Gilmore amp/energiser. The HD800s are also a lot cheaper than the Stax so less painful to lose when out and about. Like the Stax/Gilmore combination, they're still an awful lot more money than some not much worse designs which, pragmatically, make more sense in commercial and day to day operational terms. At least they do for me.

[Hugh Robjohns]

I read a review saying that the HD800s were expensive to deliver the extra 10% beyond the HD650s. I love and swear by the 650s; but the 800s are about 1000% beyond, not 10%. They are simply in a different league.

I know you've just spent a small fortune and are very enthusiastic of and impressed by the HD800s -- and rightly so -- but I would kindly suggest that perhaps your reference scale has become slightly warped.

The HD800s are, without doubt, astonishingly good, and at the price you have found them, arguably a good buy.

But, really, they aren't 1000% better than HD650s.

They do represent a pinacle of headphone performance, no argument from me on that, but they are not without competition -- there are one or two other very high-end 'phones that are as astoinishingly good too, such as some of the Stax models. I think perhaps the fact they don't have the HD600/650 'family' sound character also plays a large part of your current appreciation.

Are the HD800s worth the money? Well, if you can comfortably afford them and value obtaining an absolute top level performance then yes. Just as buying Prism converters would deliver noticeably better performance than a MOTU interface, or a vintage U47 could sound better than an Rode Classic mic...

But we really are talking about small incremental improvements here, not radical changes. It is the last few percent of improvement, not ten orders of magnitude better!

What they can deliver also depends very heavily on the quality of what is driving them. The fact that you are using bidget-level equipment could easily mean that your previous headphones have been hampered in their performance just as easily as the HD800s have delivered more perforamnce. Cheap headphone amps are quite sensitive to the load impedance... As always, a signal chain is only as strong as its weakest link.

But returning to the 1000% claim, stepping up from iPod earphones to HD650s won't even deliver a 1000% change in performance, and the step from 650s to 800s is substantially smaller than that.... in my view.

Worth having if you can afford it, certainly, but I'm not convinced your mixes will improve radically compared to what you can achieve with HD650s, or any other competent headphone.

hugh

[* User requested deletion 2 *]

Apologies for the thread hijack Kevin - but it's vaguely related....

Been googling away, read a bunch of stuff, researched prices - I just can't justify the outlay on something like the HD800s or the more esoteric cans mentioned here. But the HD650 / K701 / 702 certainly fall into my budget, and I definitely need some better cans - the Beyer dt250 / 990 combo I've been using for the last 10 years are both getting long in the tooth.

Going to go and have a listen to these 3 beasties on Monday - but would welcome any thoughts comparing them from the guys here who have head and used them all. Is there a sonic difference between the K701 and K702 or is it just a 'toughness' upgrade for studio use that the 702 is benefiting from? Some online reviews complain about the restrictive headband and smallish foams on the hd650 - is this really the case? (I've got a big head, so it's a concern...)

And anyone care to comment or compare with the Ultrasone brand? Their Pro 650/750/2500/2900 models all fall into a similar kind of price range and are widely available here in Berlin - just wondering if it'd be worth the trip to demo them.

thanks!

PS - re: Hugh's advice about headphone amps: I'd be driving them with the headphone out on a Dangerous Music Monitor ST, which is specced with a 40w amp, and going on the manual seems to be aimed at best compatability with what they describe as ".medium spec cans (32-70 ohms)". Reckon this would deliver good performance with the Sennheisers or AKGs?

[Kevin Nolan]

Hi Hugh -

Thanks for your post. I know I've been emotive about these headphones - but I have to stand by my claim. I've been listening to a range of works and some of my own synthesizers on them including the OASYS and I have to say; they are simply far, far beyond the HD650s. The new 'depth' I can hear in the OASYS, for example, is just spell-binding. and as for listening to orchestral music - FINALLY I can hear the individual parts I can see on the score. I'm studying film scoring at the moment and these are going to revolutionise my perception of orchestral composition (and I certainly put the 650s through their paces in this regard where they did NOT deliver!).

They are a totally different experience - hugely immersive and as said in my post yesterday - they expand the detail immeasurably. I know what I’m experiencing and I simply can't believe what I'm hearing.

I just finished listening to 'Mask' by Vangelis and again my reaction is one of utter overwhelming astonishment. I closed my eyes and was completely immersed in a sonic feast that I've never experienced before.

As said, on the head phone front I'm comparing with the HD600 and HD650 (and the Bose QC3) and on the monitoring front JBL 4412s driven by a Yamaha H3000 Power amplifier; Genelec 1030As; BM6Ps driven by a Quad 520f and on the Hifi front KEF Coda 7s driven by Yamaha DSP AX-620 5.1 Amp.

Nothing – and I mean nothing in that list comes anywhere close to the audio clarity, definition and space I’m experiencing. I claim no special knowledge; there’s a bucket of acoustic room improvements I need to make, and so on and so on – but on the face of it – as I’m hearing it right now; I cannot believe my ears. There is 'audi-information' captured on the best recordings even on ordinary CD which I could previously not hear - and now I'm hearing it. I would have never thought that to be the case. Unbelievable! Sennheiser - you're geniuses !(again I've no affiliation with or bias toward Sennheiser)

There is huge subjectivity in this area of course – but this I can say with cast iron certainty – I am hearing ALL of my music in a totally different way. After listening to Mask it’s as if I ‘got’ what Vangelis was on about in a completely different way because it was heard in a completely different way. It's like I was at a 'virtual' live rendition of the album - I'm not kidding. I have never, ever gotten that from my HD650s, as good as they are.

I’ll say it again to those interested – there is a serious objective difference – a fundamental improvement. It’s like I’ve arrived. I can trust my ears and I can start to compose, experiment, mix and master with a whole new confidence.

Hugh - I know you are hugely expert and honest to a tee but i'm being as truthful as i can be here too. A few things that might point to our different sense of the headphone might include - my room acoustics (though not bad - I run a lot o hardware synths in a small space so perhaps they affect the absolute clairy). And secondly the music I'm into - though I did give them a going through on a wide selection fo music / genres. Even the Gorrilaz sound even better through them . Finally, though my speakers are fabulous, they might not deliver the same immersive experience.

Are they the best – I'll never know. Do other brands compare – probably but these are a serious, serious proposition as they stand. Could I afford these – monetarily no – I put them on my credit card – but in terms of safe guarding my music and my future – I cannot afford to be without them. I’m already researching monitor amps and have come round the fact that I’ll have to acquire another pair in the next year or two as a back-up set. This is a win win situation IMO.

As mentioned above - you are welcome to buy several pairs of £200 headphones – I just know that there’s a different experience to be had at a whole other level and I’m sticking with that from here on in. I still feel privilaged and fortunate to own the HD650s and they will remain very, very important - but the HD800s have just pointed to a fundamentally higher bar - and a totally different sound experience which I'm even more grateful to have discovered (and as said above - I'm going to suffer money wise to pay for the credit card - I'm not wealthy). Are they in your budget? If you can afford a holiday - just don't go on the holiday - they you can afford them - that's what I do (I've no car and my house needs a serious lick of paint!!):-)

Kevin.

[Neil C]

There is 'audi-information' captured on the best recordings

Darned product placement gets everywhere.

A lot of my most favourite 'records' that I consider unbetterable were made with monitoring that I expect did not approach even the HD650's level of detail, and those favourite things are in mono.

[Hugh Robjohns]

Hi Kevin,

I am genuinely pleased you are enjoying - if not positively drooling about -- your new headphones, and I agree that they are superbly good.

I think it's important to recognise that they have a rather different presentation character compared to previous generations of Sennheiser headphone and are extremely neutral.

I notice that none of your existing monitoring is what I'd define as particularly neutral or, indeed, particularly high resolution, and in that context I can certainly see why you would find the HD800s such a remarkably huge step up.

However, what I'm slightly confused about is why you find them such a huge improvement from the HD650s which, while they have their own limitations and character, are pretty good in the grand scheme of things. I'd expect you to recognise a significant improvement, of course -- I did too -- but I'm slightly surprised that you think it such a massively large margin.

All I can assume is that your current headphones amps were limiting their performance in some way that doesn't afflict the HD800s as much.

Whether the improvement -- whatever that may be subjectively -- can be justified for the cost is, obviously, a personal matter. After careful consideration, I decided not...

Of course, credit cards don't make the cost go away, they either just delay it or drag it out to turn what was initially a good price into a significantly less good price!

hugh

[mjfe2]

Of course, credit cards don't make the cost go away, they either just delay it or drag it out to turn what was initially a good price into a significantly less good price!

What were those percentage figures Kevin mentioned in his original post?

Oh well, I'm currently debating whether I should 'splash out' on the Beyer DT880s as a complement to my 770s! But I could never see myself buying the HD800s, unless I became a mastering engineer...

Speaking of the Sennheiser 'family sound' Hugh, is it fair to say the HD600/650s are quite 'dark'?

[Kevin Nolan]

Hi Kevin,

...

I notice that none of your existing monitoring is what I'd define as particularly neutral or, indeed, particularly high resolution, and in that context I can certainly see why you would find the HD800s such a remarkably huge step up.

....

All I can assume is that your current headphones amps were limiting their performance in some way that doesn't afflict the HD800s as much.

hugh

Hugh - I think the list of speakers, amps and headphones listed is very respectable and have served many great artists and albums over time. For example the JBL4412s are historically renowned. And - I know their sound over 20 years. So I don't see the argument you're hinting at - namely that some sort of 'overall failing or limitation' in my setup has lead me to a historically limited perception from my monitoring, so that now I'm perhaps superficially noticing a larger (than actually there) difference with the HD800s. Actually, my setup allows me to make quite discerning mixes; and I have experienced enough ears (though claim no special talent in that regard!). But the difference I'm hearing in the HD800s is real - I have no doubt. In Daphnis and Chloe Suite 3 for example, I can hear individual orchestral lines far more clearly - as said above - this is a fundamentally different sound experience.

I've gone back and checked to see if I'm conning myself - and no - the HD650 'resolution' is less in this regard in particular. Apart from the immersive experience (which is breathtaking) the finesse to the HD800s in terms of imaging, precision, clarity and all of the other descriptors is - to me - enormous.

With respect - I believe you are debating more about 'taste' where I'm pointing out basic technology improvement. I would expect a 1300 Euro set of headphones to deliver a better audio experience than a 300 Euro set. I think most would too - and your placing of my perception into the realm of 'coming from a place of poor-ish audio monitoring setup to a 'quite good' one on the HD800s' is not (again IMO) the correct evaluation here.

Even on the issue of trust - Sennheiser provide the actual diffuse field frequency response of each individual set of headphones on their web site via the serial number. I believe their intentions for the HD800s are very, very earnest - and suggest you are being a tad unfair in your comparison with the 650s.

...

However, what I'm slightly confused about is why you find them such a huge improvement from the HD650s which, while they have their own limitations and character, are pretty good in the grand scheme of things. I'd expect you to recognise a significant improvement, of course -- I did too -- but I'm slightly surprised that you think it such a massively large margin.

...
hugh

I have to admit that I am equally perplexed by your statements about the comparative difference between the 650s and 800s. To my ears the difference is enormous.

I should say, to be as fair as possible to anyone reading this and thinking of buying a pair - I took a risk in buying them without prior listening. Usually I would not do this but there simply was nowhere in Ireland to test them out. But the usual advice of trying before buying is wise here, despite my raving about them.

I'll finish 'going on about them' by sayig that I spent last night going through a range of materials - both my own music and a selection of classical, rock and electronic albums, and again I still can't believe my ears. They are magnificent. I can only say again here that irrespective of whether I've convinced anyone here - I feel that I've taken a massive leap forward in terms of how I'll percieve music, and how I will proceed from here on in when composing and mixing. I'm very, very excited about that.

Finally, on the issue of cost - The 830 Euro I paid for these is nothing in the greater scheme. Many will drink that away in two months of weekends. I have to say - that I will never, ever compromise on sound if there is anyway whatsoever of scraping the money together. I do not buy the argument that you should buy cheaper headphones (or any audio device) just because the cost seems too high. What's too high? for me, I've enough limitations in my basic talent to be putting other limitations in the way of being as effective and productive in music as I can be. I'm confident the HD800s are not more over priced than the HD650s - they just cost more to research, design, build and indeed sell. In any case I haggled down over 500 E so to me they are a bargain

Myles - yes - the HD650's are a little darker than the HD800s. Don't know if you'd call them 'dark' perhaps others can compare with other models. The strenght of the HD650s (IMO) is their incredible neutral and very trustworthy sound - despite my going on about the 800s, the 650s are exquisite make no bones about it.

Kevin.

[Hugh Robjohns]

listed is very respectable and have served many great artists and albums over time. For example the JBL4412s are historically renowned.

No offence intended, Kevin. We all have different tastes and expectations. I was just thinking out loud while trying to understand your perceptions.

I know their sound over 20 years.

Again, no offence intended, but the standard of speaker monitoring -- and headphone design -- has moved forward somewhat in the last two decades.

The difference I'm hearing in the HD800s is real

Of that I have no doubt -- as I've said, they are superbly capable headphones. I was merely questioning the percieved step size, and I think we'll just have to agree to differ.

I would expect a 1300 Euro set of headphones to deliver a better audio experience than a 300 Euro set.

Of course -- and they do. But in a similar vein, is driving £130k Aston DB9 a 1000% step up on driving a £70k jag XKR? I wouldn't say so, but personal perceptions are all.

your placing of my perception into the realm of 'coming from a place of poor-ish audio monitoring setup to a 'quite good' one on the HD800s' is not the correct evaluation here.

Again, no offence intended and I wasn't suggesting your montoring was 'poor' exactly -- rather than it was coloured in a way that the HD800s most definitely aren't.

I believe their intentions for the HD800s are very, very earnest indeed and I think you are being a tad loose in your comparison with the 650s.

I have no doubt that Sennheiser has introduced a worthy step forward in headphone technology, and that it has brought about very worthwhile improvements.

All I'm questioning is whether those improvements really are the difficult to imagine ten orders of magnitude greater as you so enthusiastically claim, or maybe perhaps something that could fit more compfortably within the descriptor of 'diminishing returns'

In my brief review in the January issue this year I said:

...truly stunning in every way: they really do raise the benchmark for studio headphones. ... Offering astonishingly low distortion and almost the same maximum sound pressure level as the HD650s, the HD800s build subtly, but noticeably on the resolution and bandwidth of the HD650s. We really are into the realm of diminishing returns, though, and only the seriously fanatical will feel comfortable justifying the considerable additional cost. The HD800 is undoubtedly more accurate and better built than the HD650, but not three times better than something that is probably already 95 percent of the way to perfection anyway.

And Paul White said:

any sonic improvement over the HD650s is relatively small, as the latter already approach what’s possible, and the HD800s cost considerably more.

I feel that I've taken a massive leap forward in terms of how I'll percieve music

And at the end of the day that's all that is important.

hugh

[Michael Dow]

You say you keep noticing things you have never heard before.

Is this the same with your own music too?

[Kevin Nolan]

Cheers Hugh!

Michael - in others' music I'm definitely hearing lines I either had not heard before or had not noticed. The new perception I notice is IMO real. The best examples are with orchestral pieces where there is a tangible improvement in hearing lines that previously I either struggled to identify or separate and in some cases simply could not hear. I’m earnest here because I regularly find it frustrating, when trying to understand an orchestral texture on printed score, that I can’t hear it on the CD. Purchasing multiple CDs and even the Bose QC3 noise cancellation headphones have all provided partial improvement – but the HD800s simply blew me away – for Daphnis and Chloe’s 3rd suite, the clarity of the rapid and intricate sequences in clarinets, flutes and violins so famous in that piece were shockingly clear. And a copy of Berg’s ‘7 early songs’ by EMI is suddenly clear – for the first time. I’m over the moon about this. Perhaps these headphones work best with Orchestral Music (though I’m a Vangelis fan and hugely biased, his albums are just heavenly through these cans – nirvana!!). On one Vangelis piece on his album Direct (the first piece - can't remember the name) - the detail in the sequencing - especially at a point where the main sequences disappear into the background - sounds new to me (though I need to go back to that piece on the 650s to see if I can hear these almost imperceptible sequences on those).

On an album called 'Mo' by Frederick Rousseau (Vangelis's producer!) which is brimming with ethnic instruments and eastern vocals, the HD800s reveal the album is jaw-dropping clarity.

Obviously I'm not hearing new material in my own music - but the 'space' within which some of my pieces seems bigger, more defined and even more precise. I put this down to hearing detail in instrumental lines not as noticed before.

Playing my OASYS was _very_ interesting. The OASYS basic HD-1 samples are very good - and are not compressed as with the samples on the likes of the Motif and Fantom - so its pianos, mallets and percussion sound impressively better, deeper and more dynamic. I'm delighted with this – it’s like a fidelity upgrade to the OASYS. It definitely affects how I perceive the dynamics of the instrument. However I do not intend using these headphones for this sort of playing – they’re too expensive to be used for basic monitoring and I intend using them for late-stage mixing and mastering, ambisoni/experimental compositions (and orchestral study).

OK - I've said enough - sorry for boring you - I'll zip it now!!

Kevin.