Getting back into home studio recording - which DAW?

[Paulie Bhoy]

Hi All

After a 3 year absence from home studio recording, I've got the bug to start again as I've got a new rock band together and want to capture our creations.

When I last did anything I used Cubase SX2 on PC using a M-Audio Fireware 410 interface.

I'm convinced I need to invest in a new computer. It appears that PCs have come on a long way yet for audio work but I'm thinking about a Mac. What would be your advice on which way to go?

Also, given that my Cubase version is somewhat dated, I was considering either upgrading to version 5 or maybe going to Pro Tools 9 as I understand this is now "open". I think the cost of either software option would be comparable? So really is done to the which is the best system (I work mainly with audio but use of midi for loops etc)

If I were to go with PT, would you recommend getting a new interface such as the Factory Rack or will the M-Audio FW410 do the job equally well? I like the idea of something that just works well together with no compatability issues.

Thanks for all your help.

Best wishes
Paul

[Exalted Wombat]

A new PC will be just fine, as long as you spend HALF the price of a Mac on a suitable machine, not a quarter as much on some junk from PC World (I exaggerate, but not much

Your Cubase SX2 and Firewire 410 will do exactly what they used to do. Was this previously unstable and/or restrictive? If so, tell us how and we can suggest improvements.

The latest DAW software records and mixes straightforward audio tracks much the same as SX2 does. If you're more into constructing music with lots of editing and manipulation, later software offers some neat toys. But 90% of what makes me money on my powerful PC with Cubase 5 I could have done in Cubase Audio on my Atari Falcon (except that wasn't a particularly stable system - but the functions were there).

Mac is a good system, but it isn't The Answer to all possible pitfalls. Look on the Mac support forum at www.cubase.net if you don't believe me. And, although Apple once seemed to be interested in supporting the music and design communities, they're now predominantly interested in being the "lifestyle" choice of computer, and selling millions of iToys. And very successfully they're doing it too. Buy Apple if you would buy Bose. (Again, I exaggerate. But not THAT much. And it's getting worse.)

[Paulie Bhoy]

Thanks very much for your reply.

I'm minded to take your advice and upgrade to Cubase 5 and buy a specialised PC (I know I could buy the components separately and build myself but I have no clue what I'd be doing).

In terms of major manufacturers I see Inta-Audio, Carillon and Scan are names that feature quite a bit. Any experience with them / recommendations?

Many thanks again

[Exalted Wombat]

Thanks very much for your reply.

I'm minded to take your advice and upgrade to Cubase 5 and buy a specialised PC (I know I could buy the components separately and build myself but I have no clue what I'd be doing).

In terms of major manufacturers I see Inta-Audio, Carillon and Scan are names that feature quite a bit. Any experience with them / recommendations?

Many thanks again

The guy from Scan is active on this forum and very helpful. (And obviously a bit of an enthusiast!

Just make sure you have a very clear idea of what you want your system to do before ordering. Otherwise appropriate advice is impossible!

[Michael Dow]

Those PC#s from those companies are kinda over priced a lot of the time though

I built myself a pretty decent machine for around 500 quid (minus monitor) about 2 years ago. Bit less.

You dont even need to know what you're doing because there's no way of putting a PC together wrongly. Things only fit in where they are meant to, and you cant put them in the wrong way round. Totally fool proof.

I'd just get a little help on your components first, you must know a mate who's good with that kinda thing, or you can proababyl easily find the info online. Do it yourself and you could save a fortune and it feels good to! And its always an impressive thing to tell the ladies right...... Oh yeah im a geek i built my own pc.......

[Exalted Wombat]

You dont even need to know what you're doing because there's no way of putting a PC together wrongly. Things only fit in where they are meant to, and you cant put them in the wrong way round. Totally fool proof

You're looking at a man who's built dozens of systems, but still once managed to force a memory stick in the wrong way round. Quite expensive, that

[Elteto]

I agree, while purpose-built systems are nice, they may just be a bit too much money.

If you get a Mac, get a Mac Pro (no, not a MacBOOK), which has plenty of power and expandability options with interfaces.

If you get a PC, you can easily get one for under $1000 that will do just fine as a main studio workstation.

The key, though, is getting a good audio interface, and I really suggest getting a PCIe card based one for ultimately low latency and bandwidth. MOTU, RME, and E-Mu all sell such systems. Basically, you install a controller PCIe card in your computer, and a cable connects a breakout box to it. This box has all your inputs and outputs, and in certain systems, such as MOTU's 424 controller, you can later add MORE breakout boxes for additional inputs and outputs as your studio and recording gigs grow. This is more stable than mixing a variety of FireWire and USB interfaces as you grow, and having your DAW sort them out with various drivers and inputs/outputs on various interfaces.

If you want to something for the road, buy a rackmount case for your computer, they even sell ones that have vibration-reducing shockmounts and noise isolating lining in them. With RME or MOTU, you can also mount the audio interfaces in the same rack case, so you have an all-in-one portable recording system, just add a monitor, which can also be swivel mounted in a rack case.

If you want a laptop only, get one with an ExpressCard interface, FW and USB port, AND a SATA port for external drivers for audio and sample storage. Make sure the Laptop has at LEAST an i7 CPU and 4-6GB of RAM, if not 8. Also, make sure the HD in it is 7200 RPM, and if it has a second built-in HD, that could be used for audio or samples, as long as it is also 7200 RPM. However, an external SATA drive with its own power source will probably give you faster access speed and data transfer for audio and samples.

For a Mac laptop, you would have to get a MacBook Pro 17 which goes for $2300 just to get an ExpressCard port. On the PC platform, you can get that for less than HALF the price. I have had good experiences with the Toshiba Qosmio line, with a W7 64-bit. 64-bit should be another one of your considerations.

You can run an RME audio interface through ExpressCard on a laptop, so you get a solid interface with a lot of inputs and outputs and great quality with low latency.

For DAWs, if you want a Mac, get Logic Studio, it has a complete collection of tools to start producing music.

You have a lot of options for PC, Steinberg does have a pretty good lineup if you are used to its products.

I would mainly choose ProTools if my system was primarily purposed for multitrack audio recording.

A relatively new entry into the DAW market is the Propellerhead Reason/Record combo, which is ideal for bands. You get a lot of different sound modules, effects, synths, samplers, multitrack recording, an impressive mixer, and effects, including guitar effects.

[AllyB]

Ableton

[chew_rocket]

Cockos' Reaper is cheap (£40) and in my opinion the BEST program to work with.

Free 40 day trials are available direct from their website, so you have absolutely no reason not to try it!

[Richard Graham]

My advice would be, don't record your rock band on a PC, or even a Mac. Get a Zoom R-16. And buy a bog-standard, reasonably powerful PC *ONLY TO MIX ON*. And buy REAPER to do your mixes.

I cannot stress enough how much better it is to record on an R16 than it is to record on a PC. I bought the R16 about a month ago and I havent looked back.

The PC/Reaper combination is a dream to mix on, though.

Reason: I've lost track of the wasted hours and wasted takes and stress and frustration, trying to use a PC to record live musicians. Yes it can be done, and if you're prepared to shell out for a 'turnkey' solution, it'll probably be pretty good.

But a PC can be working one day and broken the next. You don't need it when the band is all fired up and ready to rock.

[Paulie Bhoy]

Thanks Guys, lots of things to consider! Cheers paul

[Elteto]

True, if you record everything on a dedicated hardware recorder, Reaper can mix it later on even the slowest of PCs, even from a USB drive!

Just make sure you research your requirements, as the Zoom R16 only can record 8 channels simulatensoulsy, so if you are recording a band together, you may run out of channels.

(2-3 vocal mics, 3 for the drums, one for the bass, 2-4 for guitars depending on stereo or mono effects, plus if you have keyboards, that is at least two more channels.)

Also, depending on what quality you are looking for , the Zoom R16 only does 24-bit 44.1kHz

[InactiveX]

I built myself a pretty decent machine for around 500 quid (minus monitor) about 2 years ago. Bit less.

You dont even need to know what you're doing because there's no way of putting a PC together wrongly. Things only fit in where they are meant to, and you cant put them in the wrong way round. Totally fool proof.

Sounds like you were lucky! One PC may be fine for the beginner, with everything crossed and the wind blowing right. But there is a whole lot more that can go wrong other than plugging cards in incorrectly.

It's a lot easier to build your own nowadays, with PnP and whatnot, but there is still much that can go screwie, and potentially leave the newcomer very frustrated.

You may be lucky and it all works, and you may be very unhappy if it doesn't. YMMV.

[SecretSam]

If I were starting again, it would be Ableton Live on a Mac, although it is solid on a PC too.

You don't need a Mac Pro: iMacs and Mac Minis will cover home use for most people. Expansion capability would be handy for UAD power users, but otherwise ..... well, most modern computers are plenty powerful enough for home-studio audio. Stability is the goal, and no amount of expansion is going to give you that.

On the other hand, Win 7 is a pretty good operating system, and given care in component and driver selection you will probably end up with something good. I am beyond the point in life where I can be bothered to to do the research, hence the easy way out to me seems Mac, but YMMMV.

I have both Cubase (albeit an old version) and Logic. Ableton has a much faster workflow than either, better UI, better use of screen real estate, and has very obvious routing. Very solid, too, and with fast tech support on those rare occasions when you need it. And its audio engine is optimised for continuous, non-glitching playback, which means you can actually use it, er, Live !

For new Live users, there is a learning curve from a traditional DAW. Its Arrange page works a bit like Cubase; however, a lot of its power is in its Session page. The Session page is simple enough to learn in isolation, but many users take a while to get used to the way the Session and Arrange pages interact.

I did play around in a thread asking for gaps in Live's capabilities. Some users find Logic's more sophisticated mixing capabilities are preferable (the listed ones were "latch auto", "trim" and VCAs). Other users want score and MIDI List editing, neither of which Live has.

It has to be said that Logic is stunningly good value for money these days, and comes with 30-odd GB of very good instruments, effects and loops. It is also bundled with other programs for video editing, live instrument use and, er, other stuff.

Cubase: well, if you are used to it, that would be one reason to use it some more. On my system it generated a lot of crashes, messed-up files, BSODs and so on, but many on the Forum have had better experiences with it.

Happy shopping !

[Richard Graham]

True, if you record everything on a dedicated hardware recorder, Reaper can mix it later on even the slowest of PCs, even from a USB drive!

Just make sure you research your requirements, as the Zoom R16 only can record 8 channels simulatensoulsy, so if you are recording a band together, you may run out of channels.

(2-3 vocal mics, 3 for the drums, one for the bass, 2-4 for guitars depending on stereo or mono effects, plus if you have keyboards, that is at least two more channels.)

Also, depending on what quality you are looking for , the Zoom R16 only does 24-bit 44.1kHz

For recording rock, the sound-quality of the R16 is fine. Even at 16 bit 44.1. The limiting factor in sound quality and noise is going to be the instruments, amps, leads, room, microphones etc unless you are recording at the equivalent of Olympic or Abbey Road - in which case you'd not be using your own kit anyway!

It was observed by Sam Inglis in his review that the R16s preamps can sound a bit 'lite'. This is true, they don't have the depth or character of a more expensive preamp. But you can do a lot with tape emulation, EQ, multiband compression etc, once you get your tracks into Reaper - to beef up the sound.

To illustrate, here's my band's rendition of War Pigs I recorded on the R16, 'live' in the rehearsal room.

http://www.zumodrive.com/share/8K4BNWUxZm

The setup was

Vocal: line out from crap Behringer PA (SM58 with delay added on the way into PA, so not removable from recording - not ideal but there you go)

Guitar: cheap dynamic mic (made by KAM, part of drum mic set) a couple of inches from speaker in 4x12

Bass: DI from amp, mixed through Guitar Rig 4 bass amp emulator.

Kick, Snare and Rack tom: one dynamic mic apiece.

Drums left and right: a pair of old Realistic PZMs with the backplates taken off (so effectively a pair of omni condensers), close up to kit to catch the toms and cymbals.

total: 8 tracks. Tons of spill (especially bass into the kick mic and everything into the PZMs). Not worried though, still got enough separation to work with when mixing.

Warning! It's very warts 'n' all (both performance and recording). But it *should* give you some idea of what you can do with a band using an R16, a few cheap mics, and Reaper.

[chew_rocket]

I've read so many comments here that have made me say 'no no no that is so wrong' but at the end of the day nobody is right or wrong.

Just try a few programs out. If they offer try before you buy, try them. If not, find a friend who uses it and try it on there system. There is a system for everyone, mine just happens to be Reaper (for recording/mixing) and Ableton Live (for jamming out ideas) running on a dual core PC.

[ramthelinefeed]

Cockos' Reaper is cheap (£40) and in my opinion the BEST program to work with.

Free 40 day trials are available direct from their website, so you have absolutely no reason not to try it!

I agree! Reaper wins!

[Richard Graham]

Cockos' Reaper is cheap (£40) and in my opinion the BEST program to work with.

Free 40 day trials are available direct from their website, so you have absolutely no reason not to try it!

I agree! Reaper wins!

Yes, I kind of wanted to say this, but didn't want to be accused (*again*) of being a Reaper fanboi.

I still think a dedicated hardware recorder is the way forward for capturing the performances though. Wher Reaper wins hands down is for mixing audio.

[shufflebeat]

My advice would be, don't record your rock band on a PC, or even a Mac. Get a Zoom R-16. And buy a bog-standard, reasonably powerful PC *ONLY TO MIX ON*. And buy REAPER to do your mixes.

I cannot stress enough how much better it is to record on an R16 than it is to record on a PC. I bought the R16 about a month ago and I havent looked back.

The PC/Reaper combination is a dream to mix on, though.

Reason: I've lost track of the wasted hours and wasted takes and stress and frustration, trying to use a PC to record live musicians. Yes it can be done, and if you're prepared to shell out for a 'turnkey' solution, it'll probably be pretty good.

But a PC can be working one day and broken the next. You don't need it when the band is all fired up and ready to rock.

+1. I record on a steam powered Fostex VF16 (can be picked up for about 20p these days) via direct channel outs on the desk then transfer it by burning onto CD (handy backup anyway) using a very convoluted SCSI setup (PITA - later model has built in CD drive) and so to Reaper. It's pretty hassle free and robust.

I moved from Cubase SX1 and found Reaper to be an easy transition. I've kept an eye on other DAWs since and I don't think there's anything they do that I'm missing.