Educate me about continuous sustain pedals - please

[damoore]

I am using Pianoteq Stage and it grumped that my sustain pedal was only on-off! So I want to get a sustain pedal that supports half pedaling.

So I have some questions:

Do you have the same polarity problems that you do with expression pedals. Will the same adapter fix them? Or do you have different polarity problems that need a different adapter?

Are they all TRS and capable of being plugged into a continuos controller socket designed to work with a TRS expression pedal? I know the FC3 is TRS but have not seen the others.

Do they have the same issue with resistance values? In an expression pedal Yamaha and Roland expression pedals have quite different value pots which effects the way it responds on any given synth. Do sustain pedals have the same issues?

Even if a synth is not able to make use of continuous values for sustain, will they transmit them? Obviously, you have to map a continuous controller to the right cc but when you do that is it common for synths to clip the values to 0 and 127?

At the moment I am using a QS8 as my controller, but I am looking to upgrade - possibly to the Numa Piano when it becomes available. If anyone has one in the Boston (US) area, I would love to be able to check it out. Anyway, that is why I am asking the questions generally rather than in reference to a particular piece of gear.

David

[damoore]

So I have answered a few of my own questions. I picked up a Roland DP-10 at my local music store and it works fine with my QS8. That probably means its the same polarity and range as a Roland expression pedal.

Plugged it into a continous controller port and set that to controller 64 and voila! Half pedalling. Had to manually set the curve in Pianoteq Stage but that was easy, and its amazing how much difference being able to half pedal makes to one's sound!

Score me one happy camper!

BTW, one neat feature of this pedal is that you can switch it between on-off and continuous, just in case you don't have three or four switching pedals already to hand.

[chris...]

its amazing how much difference being able to half pedal makes to one's sound!

Great stuff!

[dubbmann]

hi

can you explain on 'half-pedaling'? i use sustain pedals a lot, and as far as i know they're all binary. is a half-pedal the use of the sustain pedal on a real piano half-way so that the dampers semi-damp the strings? i'm confused what this would mean on a midi patch. any explanation of what you were after and how it differs would be most welcome!

cheers,

d

[BJG145]

is a half-pedal the use of the sustain pedal on a real piano half-way so that the dampers semi-damp the strings

Kind of...I used to think this referred to a "third setting" but it actually refers to the range of effects you can obtain between having the pedal fully up or down, and which can apparently be emulated by using a continuous controller (volume/expression pedal I guess) and a virtual piano which offers variable sustain. (Never actually tried it though.)

[damoore]

You need a patch and/or sound engine that can do it. As I mentioned, Pianotech stage will but if NI does I have not sussed it out yet.

Basically instead of just stopping when you half pedal the sound is simply reduced in volume. Strictly speaking the harmonics should change too.

Means you can blend chords together without everything being total mud. Means you can get a bigger sound while playing softly.

[Tomás Mulcahy]

Well, 10 years later and you've educated me! I was wondering if I could get my old Akai MX-1000 to do this, because I've been playing around with it on the CP80. From what you say damoore, I can, using one of the controller pedal inputs. Ordered the same Roland pedal. Looking forward to trying it. Incidentally the Akai sends note off velocity too. useful for subtle things.

[adamburgess]

Just as a hopefully useful resource…

When I got my Arturia controllers, I had 4x Korg DS-1H pedals and they just didn't work at all for half-damping. They recommended the Yammy FC3A.

The following was a really quick and thorough reply from Arturia

Here are for comparison the wiring of the recommended pedal and of the Korg one in case this may help you :

Yamaha FC3A :

FC3 Fully disengaged (not stepped on):

Tip-to-sleeve resistance ~10k
Ring-to-tip-resistance = ~0k
Ring-to-sleeve-resistance = ~10k

FC3 Fully engaged (stepped on) :

Tip-to-sleeve resistance ~10k
Ring-to-tip-resistance = ~10k
Ring-to-sleeve-resistance = ~0k

KORG DS-1H:

DS-1H Fully disengaged (not stepped on):

Tip-to-sleeve resistance ~30k
Ring-to-tip-or-sleeve resistance = infinate (no connection)
Ring = GND

DS-1H Fully engaged (stepped on):

Tip-to-sleeve resistance ~3k
Ring-to-tip-or-sleeve resistance = infinate (no connection)
Ring = GND

So unfortunately, some pedals due to their wiring type may not work properly and we won't be able to do much more in order to solve this problem.

Make sure also to plug it on the Sustain pedal input and to define it to operate in continuous mode for the values to be properly received and handled.

[Martin Walker]

Basically instead of just stopping when you half pedal the sound is simply reduced in volume. Strictly speaking the harmonics should change too.

Means you can blend chords together without everything being total mud. Means you can get a bigger sound while playing softly.

Well, 10 years later and you've educated me!

Me too!

[Tomás Mulcahy]

Make sure also to plug it on the Sustain pedal input and to define it to operate in continuous mode for the values to be properly received and handled.

Thank you for the tips. But it depends on the controller keyboard. On my Akai and damoore's QS8, the sustain socket is for a switching pedal not a continuous pedal. We both have to instead assign one of the assignable CC inputs to send CC 64 (which is Sustain). As for the wiring, it's strange that Arturia are mixing up resistance and voltage in their reply. It would be more helpful to tell us what their keyboard expects, and for it to be scaleable, and switchable to the various TRS wiring.

Or you could just rewire the Korg to suit the Arturia.

[pablo_sancha]

Hello everyone! I see this is quite an old thread, but I’d really appreciate it if you could help me with a question.

I just got the Roland DP-10 sustain pedal to use with my Arturia KeyLab MK2 (88 keys).
The Roland pedal can function as a continuous sustain pedal (it has a physical switch for this). Following instructions from various Arturia forums, I’ve configured the parameters in the MCC (Arturia MIDI Control Center) so that the sustain port works as continuous.
The problem is that the pedal sends information from 0 to 127, but it only works as ON/OFF starting from a value of 64. It just doesn't sustain below 64.

My question is: Is there any way to make the pedal work below the 64 threshold?

I’ve also read that the Yamaha FC-3A pedal works as a continuous pedal on the Arturia KeyLab MK2, but I’m wondering if it would have the same issue of only functioning as sustain from that 64 parameter onwards.
Besides, I’ve already spent €55 on the Roland pedal, and the Yamaha costs around €80, so I’d rather not make the switch unless I’m sure about it.

Thanks so much in advance for your help!

[Hugh Robjohns]

This is going to be a software controlled issue, rather than hardware.

As you say, the full pedal travel generates MIDI control message from 0-127. It's the software in they keyboard that determines how that data is interpreted. But for a switch function, setting the on/off threshold midway at 64 seems logical.

You may be able to adjust that in a keyboard midi setting somewhere, but I'm not familiar with that instrument I'm afraid.

[alexis]

Hello everyone! I see this is quite an old thread, but I’d really appreciate it if you could help me with a question.

I just got the Roland DP-10 sustain pedal to use with my Arturia KeyLab MK2 (88 keys).
The Roland pedal can function as a continuous sustain pedal (it has a physical switch for this). Following instructions from various Arturia forums, I’ve configured the parameters in the MCC (Arturia MIDI Control Center) so that the sustain port works as continuous.
The problem is that the pedal sends information from 0 to 127, but it only works as ON/OFF starting from a value of 64. It just doesn't sustain below 64.

My question is: Is there any way to make the pedal work below the 64 threshold?

I’ve also read that the Yamaha FC-3A pedal works as a continuous pedal on the Arturia KeyLab MK2, but I’m wondering if it would have the same issue of only functioning as sustain from that 64 parameter onwards.
Besides, I’ve already spent €55 on the Roland pedal, and the Yamaha costs around €80, so I’d rather not make the switch unless I’m sure about it.

Thanks so much in advance for your help!

Does toggling the mechanical Function switch on the side ("Continuous" vs "Switch") help?

[The Elf]

This could be a compatibility problem. Not all continuous sustain pedals work with all keyboards. My DP10 won't function with my Kurzweil K2700, for instance. Do Arturia say that the DP10 should work?

And then it might be worth flipping the connections to see if that helps - I keep some crocodile clip cables for this kind of experimentation.

[BJG145]

I’ve configured the parameters in the MCC (Arturia MIDI Control Center) so that the sustain port works as continuous.

The problem is that the pedal sends information from 0 to 127, but it only works as ON/OFF starting from a value of 64. It just doesn't sustain below 64.

I'm confused...you're talking about a continuous setting for the keyboard but a binary setting for the pedal. Do you actually want this pedal to behave in a continuous or binary way...?

If you just want on/off, I'd configure both the keyboard option and pedal switch for on/off.

Or...are you saying that you want continuous, but the keyboard is only responding in a binary way...?

Just had a thought...maybe you're expecting the keyboard to react to continuous sustain info as nature intended, but it's only giving you an on/off response. Could it be that the keyboard is only capable of an on/off response, and the continuous setting is just to offer this for a continuous pedal instead of a binary one...? In which case, see above; set them both to binary.

The midway point is the default way of using continuous values for binary selections. If you want a binary response, but not the one provided by either the binary or continuous mode, you could remap the incoming values with something like Bome MIDI Translator, but it's probably not worth the effort.

[pablo_sancha]

Thanks for your quick responses, guys!
I’ll try to explain myself a bit better:

My sustain pedal (Roland DP-10) has a switch to toggle between "switch" mode (0 or 127) and "continuous" mode (from 0 to 127). I have it set to "continuous," and in fact, on the keyboard’s display, you can see how it reacts to softer presses, with the values gradually increasing from 0 to 127. So, the "continuous" function works.
The problem is that, no matter what maximum and minimum sustain values I set in the keyboard software (Arturia Midi Control Center), the sustain function still perceives it as "binary," working as sustain-off if the pedal values range from 0 to 63, and sustain-on if they range from 64 to 127.

I thought it might also be a software issue, but after testing with several VSTs (Keyscape, Omnisphere, Pigments, and Kontakt), it’s clear that it’s a configuration issue.

Additionally, the keyboard manual clearly states that by adjusting the maximum and minimum values and using a compatible pedal, you can achieve the "continuous" function. So, it shouldn’t be a hardware limitation of the keyboard itself, as it is capable of receiving that information.

The only explanation I have left is that the Roland DP-10 pedal might not be compatible with this controller for some reason (even though I’ve read on several Arturia forums that it is compatible...).
Apparently, the Yamaha FC3A pedal works perfectly as a continuous sustain pedal with the Arturia mk2 (I’ve seen this mentioned in both official and unofficial forums as well), so as a last resort, I’ll buy it to test it myself. That way, I can shed more light on the issue if it doesn’t work either, in case it helps someone in the future.

I’m attaching a few images of the Arturia Midi Control Center in case they help clarify things.







Thanks so much, everyone!

[zenguitar]

Is sustain supposed to be either on or off rather than variable?

If that is the case, everything is working correctly.

Andy

[pablo_sancha]

Is sustain supposed to be either on or off rather than variable?

If that is the case, everything is working correctly.

Andy

Nope, it should work as sustain continuous, functioning as a half-damper within the range of 0 to 127, not just activating as on in <64 - 127 and off in >64 - 0.

[Eddy Deegan]

Bear in mind that the KeyLab is not a synth, it's a controller for other sound sources. The sustain pedal settings in the Arturia MIDI Control Center do not influence how whichever external sound source you are playing reacts to those messages.

In other words some synths 'understand' the variable nature of a continuous sustain pedal and others don't. Most probably don't and will behave in the manner you describe, treating the lower range as 'off' and the upper as 'on' (though it's up to them).

To test your continuous pedal you need to be controlling a synth that you know supports variable sustain values as opposed to only supporting 'on' and 'off'.

[Hugh Robjohns]

As Eddy says, having got your controller keyboard to recognise continuous sustain commands, you now need to go into the configuration settings of your virtual instruments to find out if they can respond to half pedalling (few can), and if so, configure them accordingly.

I dont believe changing the pedal will make any difference, as the one you have seems to be sending the right data and is being recieved by the keyboard.

I think your problem is either that your selected virtual instruments either dont understand continuous sustain commands at all, or aren't set up to respond to them correctly.

[alexis]

Piano Teq has a free trial, and supports half pedaling according to this thread: https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?id=9184, maybe that could help you are engender your pedal is working as expected

I also have the DP-10, and I use Piano teq, but I don't intentionally use half- pedaling, so I can't let you know from personal experience.

[pablo_sancha]

You were right, guys. In the end, it turned out to be a software issue.
I knew that Piano Teq had this half-sustain function, but I didn’t know it had a free trial version. So, I downloaded it, tested it, and indeed, the pedal works in continuous mode there.
Honestly, I find it quite surprising that a VST as high-quality as Keyscape doesn’t have this feature.

Thank you all so much for your help!

[Hugh Robjohns]

Glad you've resolved the confusion.

[alexis]

..
I knew that Piano Teq had this half-sustain function, but I didn’t know it had a free trial version. So, I downloaded it, tested it, and indeed, the pedal works in continuous mode there.
...

Thank you all so much for your help!

You're welcome, so glad going to PianoTeq worked! I'm in love with that company, great sounding product, amazing tech (how can something that sounds so good come in such a small package?!), nice forum.

Happy pedaling !

[BJG145]

I knew that Piano Teq had this half-sustain function...Honestly, I find it quite surprising that a VST as high-quality as Keyscape doesn’t have this feature

The difference between physical modelling and samples...