interface A/D D/A conversion reviews?

[awjoe]

I've got the thread up above to help me identify latencies of various interfaces, but what about A/D D/A conversion comparisons of various units? Right now I've got a Presonus Firestudio Mobile (nice to hear how the new driver delivers better latency than before), but I'm looking at other interfaces. When I bought the Presonus I chose it on the basis of ins/outs and price and some online recommendations. I want to look a bit deeper than that with my next purchase. So, do you know of a thread/page that usefully compares the analog/digital conversion characters of different units?

[Pete Kaine]

The was a thread running on gearslutz last year where a group of them were running loopback transparency tests on various units which is the only time I've seen anyone do it and publish.

[awjoe]

Really? One thread on Gearslutz a year ago? That's it? Nobody's measured A/D D/A conversion otherwise? So, when most people talk about 'good converters' they're being nothing other than subjective?

[Pete Kaine]

I'm sure other people do it for their own personal reference, I just haven't seen a collaborative chart out in the public domain I can point you at.

One of my guys has been doing loopback/null testing on units off his own back, as and when he gets chance for the last 6 months or so (I.e something is already setup on the desk and he has a spare hour), but the hasn't been a table compiled and published yet due to time constraints at our end.

It's one of the things we want to do to go along with the dawbench testing, its just sat on a rather large list right now.

[Goddard]

Have you looked through the SOS reviews of AD-DA converters, computer recording systems, soundcards, etc. available online here?

http://www.soundonsound.com/articles/Reviews.php

Some may only offer subjective assessment, sometimes by comparison with other units, but more recently SOS offer Audio Precision analysis results accompanied with audio samples (thank your SOS!), and soundcard reviews often include Rightmark loopback test results.

There is other info scattered about out there if you look (see mfr sites for "Reviews" links, but the reviews may be in other languages).

[James Perrett]

Really? One thread on Gearslutz a year ago? That's it? Nobody's measured A/D D/A conversion otherwise? So, when most people talk about 'good converters' they're being nothing other than subjective?

I think you'll find that Hugh does basic measurements on anything he reviews. But most convertors measure pretty well nowadays so the differences will be very small.

James.

[Richie Royale]

I can tell you that my RME FF800 is a step above my Echo Audiofire 8 which is currently ADAT into the RME. It isn't a massive difference, but there is one.

Depending on what you plan on spending, I would recommend looking at an RME Fireface 800 at least. Lots of inputs, and I expect a step up (marginally) from the Presonus.

[Martin Walker]

...and soundcard reviews often include Rightmark loopback test results.

Hi Goddard!

As far as I know I was the only person who ever included Rightmark loopback test results in my SOS audio interface reviews, as well as audio comparator listening against a benchmark interface and measurements of both real-world latency and MIDI latency, but the most recent one of those is in SOS May 2010.

I also did a subjective comparison of a clutch of mid-range D/A converters here, which resulted in me buying a Lavry DA10 that's still working beautifully

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan09/a ... erters.htm

Martin

[Goddard]

Hi Martin, yes, and I've always found your soundcard reviews to be most informative. And, as I have gone to some effort to maintain PCI compatibility even as ever-newer PC have platforms emerged (iow, been forced upon me), very much appreciated also!

Alas, not many new "internal" soundcards to be reviewed these days, although many oldies-but-still-goodies remain supported and quite viable although perhaps not without a bit of effort/know-how (hint: PC Notes article idea! ).

And thanks for pointing to your DAC comparison article. With so many current PCs and mobo's offering S/PDIF coax and/or optical outputs along with lower latency/load onboard audio drivers, perhaps a very attractive approach.

[Martin Walker]

Hi Martin, yes, and I've always found your soundcard reviews to be most informative. And, as I have gone to some effort to maintain PCI compatibility even as ever-newer PC have platforms emerged (iow, been forced upon me), very much appreciated also!

Alas, not many new "internal" soundcards to be reviewed these days, although many oldies-but-still-goodies remain supported and quite viable although perhaps not without a bit of effort/know-how (hint: PC Notes article idea! ).

Thanks for positive feedback Goddard!

I did in fact touch on some issues relating to using elderly soundcards in more modern PCs bac in PC Notes May 2007, when I discussed the various PCI specs:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/may07/a ... s_0507.htm

PCI Soundcard Compatibility Issues

Your much-loved elderly PCI soundcard may be working perfectly, but might still have to go on the scrapheap if you upgrade your PC. Why? It's all down to the PCI specification and the location of your notches...

Martin

[Goddard]

Hi Martin, right you are! I'd completely forgotten about that article. Thanks for the reminder!

[awjoe]

Have you looked through the SOS reviews of AD-DA converters, computer recording systems, soundcards, etc. available online here?

<a href="/articles/Reviews.php" target="_blank">http://www.soundonsound.com/articles/Reviews.php</a>

Some may only offer subjective assessment, sometimes by comparison with other units, but more recently SOS offer Audio Precision analysis results accompanied with audio samples (thank your SOS!), and soundcard reviews often include Rightmark loopback test results.

There is other info scattered about out there if you look (see mfr sites for "Reviews" links, but the reviews may be in other languages).

Most of those reviews are for quite posh gear. Is that because Audio Precision Analysis isn't really worth the trouble for the sort of all-in-one interfaces that hobbyists typically use?

[awjoe]

I can tell you that my RME FF800 is a step above my Echo Audiofire 8 which is currently ADAT into the RME. It isn't a massive difference, but there is one.

Depending on what you plan on spending, I would recommend looking at an RME Fireface 800 at least. Lots of inputs, and I expect a step up (marginally) from the Presonus.

I appreciate what you're saying, but I really, really don't need 8 ins. It's just me here, all on my onesie - two inputs do me fine. But RME is on my radar now because of general praise for it and because of how it stands up in the latency thread upstairs. I'm looking at stuff like the Babyface and wondering how it stacks up to more expensive RME kit. I'm suspicious of anything that looks like a spaceship.

[Martin Walker]

I'm looking at stuff like the Babyface and wondering how it stacks up to more expensive RME kit. I'm suspicious of anything that looks like a spaceship.

Oh dear - were you abducted by aliens when young?

Martin

[Goddard]

I'm looking at stuff like the Babyface and wondering how it stacks up to more expensive RME kit. I'm suspicious of anything that looks like a spaceship.

Oh dear - were you abducted by aliens when young?

Martin

Obviously not yet seen it in pink with all those tentacles, er, I mean, fanout cabling...

[awjoe]

I'm looking at stuff like the Babyface and wondering how it stacks up to more expensive RME kit. I'm suspicious of anything that looks like a spaceship.

Oh dear - were you abducted by aliens when young?

Martin

Not that I recollect, but I think your signature emoticon might have some experience of it.

[awjoe]

I'm looking at stuff like the Babyface and wondering how it stacks up to more expensive RME kit. I'm suspicious of anything that looks like a spaceship.

Oh dear - were you abducted by aliens when young?

Martin

Obviously not yet seen it in pink with all those tentacles, er, I mean, fanout cabling...

Yeah, I saw the pink one. For girls, presumably. And the blue for the boys. And the silver unit for anyone who knows what looks best.

[Johnny Stecchino]

The was a thread running on gearslutz last year where a group of them were running loopback transparency tests on various units which is the only time I've seen anyone do it and publish.

I presume this is the link:
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/gear-shoot-outs-sound-file-comparisons-audio-tests/598078-play-record-10-times-ad-da-loop-back-test.html

Unfortunately you can't use the link they give but you might contact the guy who gave the link and ask him for the comparison...

[Pete Kaine]

Well found, that's the one.

[awjoe]

The was a thread running on gearslutz last year where a group of them were running loopback transparency tests on various units which is the only time I've seen anyone do it and publish.

I presume this is the link:
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/gear-shoot-outs-sound-file-co...

Unfortunately you can't use the link they give but you might contact the guy who gave the link and ask him for the comparison...

Ah, very nice. Thanks to the both of you.

[didier.brest]

I presume this is the link:
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/gear-shoot-outs-sound-file-co...

I was the first one who used Audio DiffMaker in such a thread.

Here below the current ranking from best to worst. Actually I do not hear so much a difference between the Hilo and the Babyface.

DA-AD loops from this wav file evaluated by means of Audio DiffMaker.

ADDA converters

Lynx Hilo (CoolColJ)
Corr Depth: 41,8 dB (L), 43,7 dB (R), Difference: -56,8 dBFS (L), -57,2 dBFS (R)

MOTU 828mk2 (laurend)
Corr Depth: 36,4 dB (L), 37,9 dB (R) Difference: -55.7 dBFS (L) -57.0 dBFS (R)

Mytek 8 x 192 (MainTime)
Corr Depth: 35,3 dB (L), 36,9 dB (R) Difference: -55.2 dBFS (L) -56.0 dBFS (R)

Aurora 8 (cylens)
Corr Depth: 34,6 dB (L), 36,3 dB (R) Difference: -54.2 dBFS (L) -55.1 dBFS (R)

TC Electronics Impact Twin (AndG)
Corr Depth: 32,0 dB (L), 33,6 dB (R) Difference: -51.7 dBFS (L) -52.7 dBFS (R)

RME HDSP 9632 (schtim)
Corr Depth: 31.4 dB (L), 33.0 dB (R) Difference: -51.2 dBFS (L) -52.1 dBFS (R)

Prism Orpheus (MainTime)
Corr Depth: 30,8 dB (L), 32,4 dB (R) Difference: -51.1 dBFS (L) -52.4 dBFS (R)

RME Fireface 400 (didier.brest)
Corr Depth: 30,2 dB (L), 31,8 dB (R) Difference: -49.8 dBFS (L) -50.8 dBFS (R)

TC Electronics Impact Twin (ben)
Corr Depth: 29,1 dB (L), 30,8 dB (R) Difference: -48,7 dBFS (L), -49,7 dBFS (R)

Echo Audiofire 12 (guze)
Corr Depth: 28,8 dB (L), 30,1 dB (R) Difference: -48.4 dBFS (L) -49.2 dBFS (R)

E-MU 1616m (left channel only, ben)
Corr Depth: 28,9 dB (L) Difference: -45,9 dBFS (L)

Apogee Symphony I/O (Ajantis)
Corr Depth: 43,4 dB (L), 45,6 dB (R) Difference: -45,9 dBFS (L), 45,5 dBFS dB (R)

Echo Audiofire 4 (david1103)
Corr Depth: 25,6 dB (L), 27,4 dB (R) Difference: -45,2 dBFS (L), -46,3 dBFS (R)

Metric Halo ULN-2 (DownSideUp)
Corr Depth: 25,3 dB (L), 26,9 dB (R) Difference: -44,9 dB (L), 46,0 dB (R)

Echo Audiofire 8 non adat CS4272 (guze)
Corr Depth: 26,4 dB (L), 28,2 dB (R) Difference: -40.6 dBFS (L) -40.6 dBFS (R)

RME Multiface II - Unbalanced, -10 dBV (juki, Audiofanzine)
Corr Depth: 22,7 dB (L), 24,4 dB (R) Difference: -42,4 dBFS (L) -43,5 dBFS (R)

RME Fireface 800 (genelec79)
Corr Depth: 22,3 dB (L), 23,9 dB (R) Difference: -41,9 dB (L), -43,0 dB (R)

RME Multiface II - Balanced, 4 dBu (juki, Audiofanzine)
Corr Depth: 22,3 dB (L), 23,9 dB (R) Difference: -41,9 dBFS (L) -43,0 dBFS (R)

Apogee Duet2 (isma)
Corr Depth: 19,8 dB (L), 21,4 dB (R) Difference: -40.2 dBFS (L) -41.6 dBFS (R)

Focusrite Saffire Pro 24 DSP (CoolColJ)
Corr Depth: 20,2 dB (L), 22,0 dB (R) Difference: -38,9 dBFS (L), -39,9 dBFS (R)

RME Fireface UFX/1,2/3,4 (didier.brest)
Corr Depth: 18,5 dB (L), 20,1 dB (R) Difference: -38,9 dBFS (L), -40,3 dBFS (R)

RME Fireface UFX/5,6/3,4 (didier.brest)
Corr Depth: 18,4 dB (L), 20,1 dB (R) Difference: -38,8 dBFS (L), -40,3 dBFS (R)

Yamaha Steinberg MR816X (didier.brest)
Corr Depth: 19,1 dB (L), 21,0 dB (R) Difference: -38.6 dBFS (L) -40.0 dBFS (R)

RME Fireface UFX/1,2/9,10 (didier.brest)
Corr Depth: 14,7 dB (L), 16,2 dB (R) Difference -35,03 dBFS (L) -36,30 dBFS (R)

Edirol FA-66 (didier.brest)
Corr Depth: 15,6 dB (L), 17,1 dB (R) Difference: -34.4 dBFS (L) -35.4 dBFS (R)

RME Babyface (didier.brest)
Corr Depth: 9,2 dB (L), 10,8 dB (R) Difference: -28.8 dBFS (L) -29.8 dBFS (R)

Sets of different converters

Aurora8 clocked by RME HDSPe RayDAT (cylens)
Corr Depth: 34,6 dB (L), 36,3 dB (R) Difference: -55.3 dBFS (L) -56.5 dBFS (R)

Echo Audiofire 8 with ADAT clocked by RME HDSP 9632 (schtim)
Corr Depth: 25.9 dB (L), 27.5 dB (R) Difference: -45.5 dBFS (L) -46.5 dBFS (R)

M-Audio Profire2626 clocked by RME HDSPe RayDAT (cylens)
Corr Depth: 24,4 dB (L), 25,9 dB (R) Difference: -44.1 dBFS (L) -45.0 dBFS (R)

M-Audio Profire2626 clocked by Lynx Aurora8 (cylens)
Corr Depth: 24,4 dB (L), 25,9 dB (R) Difference: -44.0 dBFS (L) -44.9 dBFS (R)

RME Fireface 800 clocked by Yamaha 02R (genelec79)
Corr Depth: 22,3 dB (L), 23,9 dB (R) Difference: -41,9 dB (L), -43,0 dB (R)

RME Babyface --> RME Fireface 400 (didier.brest)
Corr Depth: 16,6 dB (L), 18,4 dB (R) Difference -29,4 dBFS (L), -28,8 dBFS (R)

Benchmark DAC1 phone output ---> Echo Audiofire 4 (david1103)
Corr Depth: 10,4 dB (L), 10,2 dB (R) Difference: -22,6 dBFS (L), -23,1 dBFS (R)

[awjoe]

Didier, there's a big difference between the Hilo figures and the Babyface figures, but you say you can't hear much of a difference. Does that mean:

a) people can't hear much of a difference between *any* of these converters?

b) the figures in the test you and your friends did don't really measure anything important?

c) the Babyface is really messing with the signal, but it's doing it in a way that sounds good?