Technical question regarding +4 vs -10 on moniotrs

[Glenn Bucci]

I noticed my monitors are louder when they are set at the -10 setting compared to the +4 setting. I am aware that professional gear is at +4 and consumer gear at -10. I understand that the clipping point of cheaper analog gear is much lower and many consumer gear can distort before it actually reaches the actual clippoing point. With higher end gear you have a higher clipping point or higher headroom.

My question is am I correct that +4 offer more headroom so with higher end gear will benifit from this? From my understanding this is the reason why +4 is preferred. However if your volume is lower with +4, and you have to crank your volume on your monitoring system higher......at the same volume as -10, is there more headroom. I am sort of thinking out loud as I type this.

[Exalted Wombat]

It's just a nominal voltage level. I'm not even going to quote the figures, because they won't help. Suffice it to say that there's two standards, a lower one (-10) and a higher one (+4). Well-designed equipment should have plenty of headroom above its nominal level. I suppose you COULD see running a -10 output into a +4 input as "maximising headroom", but it's really just "not sending enough level" Read up on "gain staging".

Neither is "preferred". Professionals might have long cable runs in electrically noisy environments. A higher voltage can theoretically help. But they also routinely use long microphone cables at a much lower level.

You should send any input an appropriate level. End of story.

[Hugh Robjohns]

This is just a sensitivity control, marked in nominal operating levels instead of a rotary knob marked from 1-10... Or whatever.

There is roughly 12dB level difference between nominal +4dBu and -10dBV levels (the latter being the lower level), so if you switch the monitor to the -10 position it will be 12dB more sensitive than in the +4 position... and hence a lot louder.

All analogue equipment is designed with a headroom margin above the nominal level, and in general it will be around 12 to 20dB. Good pro gear might have 20dB of headroom, or maybe a little more. A lot of consumer gear might have only 12dB to 16dB headroom...but some might have more. Regardless, the absolute clipping point voltage of consumer gear with -10dBV nominal level will always be lower than the clipping point of pro gear working with higher nominal level, simply because they have different nominal levels? But it doesn't matter unless you intend to send the output of pro gear into consumer gear without first attenuating it!

As to the headroom question with your monitors, if you connect a nominally -10dBV signal and select the +4 position, you will have 12dB more headroom than the designer intended, and if you connect a +4dBu signal with the -10 setting selected you will have 12dB less headroom than intended. You should select the appropriate sensitivity setting for you system's nominal operating level, and then adjust the level trimmer on the speaker (if present) or the gain structure of the monitor controller to establish a sensible reference monitoring SPL.

H

[Glenn Bucci]

Thanks guys, so the important thing is to match your gear with the correct signal strength. I confirmed my new Dangerous D Box is +4, so I will adjust my monitors to +4 to match them.

[Hugh Robjohns]

Good plan.

[Burdenko]

Through +4 Dbu input is playing more quiet than through -10DbV input

I have kind a same thing, but it is really a problem for me. I just bought Adam audio monitors and I have UR22 MKII steinberg interface, that have "Impedance Balanced" output. But when I switch to balanced Jack-XLR cables, it starts to play more dimm and quiet, than through unbalanced Jack-RCA cable. How to check where is the problem? cables are good, I checked on other gear.

[Hugh Robjohns]

Through +4 Dbu input is playing more quiet than through -10DbV input

Yes, it would. The +4dBu input needs 1.228 Volts of signal level to deliver its nominal acoustic output power, whereas the -10dBV input only needs 0.316 Volts. There's around 12dB of difference in level between the two, with the -10dBV option being the more sensitive.

But when I switch to balanced Jack-XLR cables, it starts to play more dimm and quiet, than through unbalanced Jack-RCA cable. How to check where is the problem?

There is no problem, it's exactly as it should be. You can turn up the volume (input sensitivity) of you monitors if you want it louder. There may also be options to increase the output level of your interface's line outputs.

[Burdenko]

There is no problem, it's exactly as it should be. You can turn up the volume (input sensitivity) of you monitors if you want it louder. There may also be options to increase the output level of your interface's line outputs.

Thanks! So it means, that this is of what my audio interface (UR22) is capable.
I just tried to plug monitors to my old pci sound card (M-audio delta 192) with ballanced cables to +4 and there was a big difference - much much louder with same gain monitor settings, on computer I even could not make max vol level, it was too loud.

I just can't belive that this is normal for such solid, well built, functional interface to give such little ammount of power to speakers. Though it is almos the cheepest among similar devices, so it is kind'a fare )

[Hugh Robjohns]

Thanks! So it means, that this is of what my audio interface (UR22) is capable.

Er... Yes, presumably. The UR22 maximum output level appears to be just +10dBu which is quite a bit lower than most.

I trust you have the front-panel Output Level control turned up fully?

I just tried to plug monitors to my old pci sound card (M-audio delta 192) with ballanced cables to +4 and there was a big difference - much much louder with same gain monitor settings, on computer I even could not make max vol level, it was too loud.

The Delta card has a maximum output level of +14, which is louder than the UR22, but not that much louder. Something doesn't add up here...

I just can't belive that this is normal for such solid, well built, functional interface to give such little ammount of power to speakers.

Nor me...

[CS70]

Through +4 Dbu input is playing more quiet than through -10DbV input

I have kind a same thing, but it is really a problem for me. I just bought Adam audio monitors and I have UR22 MKII steinberg interface, that have "Impedance Balanced" output. But when I switch to balanced Jack-XLR cables, it starts to play more dimm and quiet, than through unbalanced Jack-RCA cable. How to check where is the problem? cables are good, I checked on other gear.

Didn't ADAM monitors have a switch to change between the two levels? You are using it when moving from RCA to XLR, right?

[Burdenko]

Didn't ADAM monitors have a switch to change between the two levels? You are using it when moving from RCA to XLR, right?

Yep, exactly. There is a switch, I use it. In previouse post I wrote that with another sound card ti is super much louder - I am lissening now and really differecne in volume is not that drastic, and I even wouldn't have written about it here if it was only about volume, cause I can rise it on monitor (now it is on 0 and can be rised up to +18db). But boosting it like that does not giving desired result - sound becomes muddy. So for now I tend to think that there is some problems with my UR22. It behaves like if it have only unballanced outputs - through unbalanced cable it sounds rather loud (if to compare with same levels but through balanced) and quality of sound is normal, and with M-audio through ballanced cables it sounds about 30% louder, but it percived even louder because of entire range of frequencies and especially low and high frequencies are better heard.

[ef37a]

Hugh, tis early so my brain is fuzzy but the 192 is, I assume 'fully' balanced whereas the UR22 is Z balanced and so only driving half the Adam's balanced input?

I am not so sure a maximum output of +10dBu is that rare on budget interfaces? The Behringer UMC204HD is I am sure even lower. Will check a few out.

Oil be bek.

Dave.

[ef37a]

The 204HD is indeed a weak sister with a maximum output of just 0dBu! which is crazily low, even if the supply rail was a paltry 5V they should be able to deliver at least +6dBu?

Around +10dBu seems however to be the norm...

NI KA6 +11.5dBu*
Zoom U-44 +6dBu
P audiobox +10dBu
Audient iD4 +12dBu
Onyx 2x2 +10dBu
Mtrack 2x2 +7dBu

And note, these are maximum outputs at a presumed and sometimes stated 0dBfs and so your 'working' level is going to be a lot lower. Most claim to be balanced but not how!

There would seem to be a market for a Stereo Booster? Takes anything from 0dBu to +10 and cranks out +20dBu 'properly' balanced. Mr Orchid?

*Not that I have ever had a problem driving my Tannoy 5As with it. I could not find a spec for the Darling of the Internet, the F'rite 2i2 but have never read of a problem with one re output. My original model 8i6 seems about the same output as the KA6.

Dave.

[Hugh Robjohns]

Hugh, tis early so my brain is fuzzy but the 192 is, I assume 'fully' balanced whereas the UR22 is Z balanced and so only driving half the Adam's balanced input?

Oh come on Dave... have a coffee and realise the nonsense of that statement!

H

[ef37a]

Hugh, tis early so my brain is fuzzy but the 192 is, I assume 'fully' balanced whereas the UR22 is Z balanced and so only driving half the Adam's balanced input?

Oh come on Dave... have a coffee and realise the nonsense of that statement!

H

Yes, I agree my head is not with it today but there can be no dispute surely that the 'cold' side of the balanced input is not getting signal? Without digging out the formula I am not sure how that affects the output.

Dave.

[Hugh Robjohns]

there can be no dispute surely that the 'cold' side of the balanced input is not getting signal?

True. But completely irrelevant...

Without digging out the formula I am not sure how that affects the output.

It doesn't.

A differential receiver looks for the voltage difference between its two inputs. So it makes no difference to the output level at all whether the signal is all on the hot side with nowt on the cold, of if both inputs receive half the signal each but in opposite polarities.

That's one of the beauties of the arrangement!

[ef37a]

there can be no dispute surely that the 'cold' side of the balanced input is not getting signal?

True. But completely irrelevant...

Without digging out the formula I am not sure how that affects the output.

It doesn't.

A differential receiver looks for the voltage difference between its two inputs. So it makes no difference to the output level at all whether the signal is all on the hot side with nowt on the cold, of if both inputs receive half the signal each but in opposite polarities.

That's one of the beauties of the arrangement!

Yes, I half thought that half way through my post! Still, if it helps someone else's understanding I don't mind looking a bit of a twit.

I WAS right though about the puniness of many budget AI outputs! I cannot really see why? IF they have even modest internal rails it cost nothing to increase op amp gain. No wonder so many active monitors have too much gain and are therefore noisy.

Dave.

[Hugh Robjohns]

+10dBu should be plenty to get any modern active speaker rockin' the doors off. And it's only 4dB lower than the maximum output of the alternative interface which apparently does blow the doors off.

So, if we accept that the cabling is all fine there are only two possibilities as far as I can see:

1. A faulty UR22 -- possible but unlikely.

2. User error in configuration or operation -- which is by far the most likely scenario.

I've not used the UR22, but I'd be checking those front panel master volume controls and then all the software routing and mixer facilities.

[CS70]

Didn't ADAM monitors have a switch to change between the two levels? You are using it when moving from RCA to XLR, right?

Yep, exactly. There is a switch, I use it. In previouse post I wrote that with another sound card ti is super much louder - I am lissening now and really differecne in volume is not that drastic, and I even wouldn't have written about it here if it was only about volume, cause I can rise it on monitor (now it is on 0 and can be rised up to +18db).

Yeah that's why the gain controls are there - if a source has slightly lower output than a referenced one, you compensate with that.

But boosting it like that does not giving desired result - sound becomes muddy. So for now I tend to think that there is some problems with my UR22.

Ha, That would make me think that there's a problem with the monitors!
But of course it can be the UR22 as well.

Which musical material are you using for comparison?

It behaves like if it have only unballanced outputs - through unbalanced cable it sounds rather loud (if to compare with same levels but through balanced) and quality of sound is normal, and with M-audio through ballanced cables it sounds about 30% louder, but it percived even louder because of entire range of frequencies and especially low and high frequencies are better heard.

For a short cable length, so long the right inputs and outputs are used, there shouldn't really be any sonic difference at all between balanced and unbalanced unless you have a radio station emitter on the side - I mean, in term of muddiness and such.

If you have two signals and one is louder, Fletcher-Munson will apply so higher and lower freqs will stand out more with the loudest one (perhaps that's exactly what you were referencing to); and therefore any midrange (mud) will subjectively stand out more with the less loud signal.

So in general you should aim for the same loudness when you compare.
Even if your monitor gain knobs are at zero, you can turn down the playback volume to lower down the integrated loudness when you use the "louder" interface to get (whereabouts) similar levels, to compare the sound. Or you can do two bounces of the same recording, one less loud than the other.

Also since it's two different hardware devices, check out that Windows is not tricking you, as level and sound effect settings are per-device, so it's not a given they are the same when you swap..

[James Perrett]

There would seem to be a market for a Stereo Booster? Takes anything from 0dBu to +10 and cranks out +20dBu 'properly' balanced. Mr Orchid?

There used to be a few of these around. I have 24 tracks worth of level convertors sitting in the studio that came with my Fostex G24 and I seem to remember Tascam having something similar.

I see ART still make one...

https://artproaudio.com/product/cleanbo ... converter/

[resistorman]

There would seem to be a market for a Stereo Booster? Takes anything from 0dBu to +10 and cranks out +20dBu 'properly' balanced. Mr Orchid?

There used to be a few of these around. I have 24 tracks worth of level convertors sitting in the studio that came with my Fostex G24 and I seem to remember Tascam having something similar.

I see ART still make one...

https://artproaudio.com/product/cleanbo ... converter/

Ebtech makes them too.

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail ... el-shifter

[Hugh Robjohns]

There are dozens of different -10dBV to +4dBu (and vice versa) consumer/professional converters on the market, but I don't think that's quite what Dave was thinking of.

Rather, I think he was pondering a device that would convert the often restricted output levels of some of the budget interfaces to full professional levels... but this seems rather unnecessary to me.

There are few, if any, situations where a budget amateur installation will required to interface with high-end professional gear that really demands +24dBu peak levels... Most of the time not hitting those peak levels just means working with some extra headroom, which is hardly a bad thing.

More to the OP's specific point, I cant't think of any active monitors -- budget or high-end -- that requires +24dBu levels.

Nor any that would be the slightest bit bothered whether the source featured symmetrical or impedance-balanced outputs.

I really don't think the interface's peak output level capability has anything to do with the OP's problem. I am more persuaded by the possibility of a software configuration/user setup error...

[James Perrett]

Rather, I think he was pondering a device that would convert the often restricted output levels of some of the budget interfaces to full professional levels... but this seems rather unnecessary to me.

There are few, if any, situations where a budget amateur installation will required to interface with high-end professional gear that really demands +24dBu peak levels... Most of the time not hitting those peak levels just means working with some extra headroom, which is hardly a bad thing.

I see what you mean Hugh.

The only time I've ever needed more level from my Zoom U-44 was when I was trying to use it to drive a Dolby decoder so I'd agree that this is a rare occurrence. I solved the problem by feeding the digital input and output to a Sonifex ADDA which can handle the levels that the Dolby decoder uses.

[ef37a]

There would seem to be a market for a Stereo Booster? Takes anything from 0dBu to +10 and cranks out +20dBu 'properly' balanced. Mr Orchid?

There used to be a few of these around. I have 24 tracks worth of level convertors sitting in the studio that came with my Fostex G24 and I seem to remember Tascam having something similar.

I see ART still make one...

https://artproaudio.com/product/cleanbo ... converter/

Ebtech makes them too.

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail ... el-shifter

No Sir, that Ebtech is a passive, transformer based device and therefore the 'gain' you get will depend upon the source and sink impedances. I am sure the device is of good quality but not what I meant.

Yes Hugh, you have it and yes, not really necessary for the home bod most of the time (but what about those daft sods with the A80s on tother thread?) I just thought of a compact box that could put out +24dBu balanced at low (even 'zero') impedance and might be handy for driving very long lines.
With trimmable gain could still be used in a projjy studio?

Dave.

[Hugh Robjohns]

No Sir, that Ebtech is a passive, transformer based device and therefore the 'gain' you get will depend upon the source and sink impedances.

Yes, but only slightly... Not enough variation to be a problem in practice given the commonality of low source and high destination impedances in modern equipment.

...what about those daft sods with the A80s on tother thread?

I can't imagine they would be using budget USB interfaces anyway, so not a problem...

I just thought of a compact box that could put out +24dBu balanced at low (even 'zero') impedance and might be handy for driving very long lines.

A 12dB hotter signal level isn't really going to make any difference on any long lines in a typical home studio -- they just aren't going to be long enough to cause problems.

I understand why the relatively low maximum level bothers you... but I think it's just one of those things that really doesn't matter to most, and for those for whom it would matter, they will be using gear that works to the full spec* anyway.

*Note: the EBU spec is for a Maximum Permitted Level of +18dBu (with an alignment level of 0dBu), rather than the SMPTE's +24/+4dBu references. I use the EBU +18/0 alignment here as that suits the RME interface card I use, as well as my classic twin-twin BBC PPMs!