New SSD

For anything relating to music-making on Windows computers, with lots of FAQs. Moderated by Martin Walker.

New SSD

Post by pattexer »

Hi!
After my last SSD went toast, I am now in need of new one. Or perhaps two?
I'm thinking about purchasing two drives and use them in Raid 0 to get as much performance as possible. I've been looking on the Samsung 840 EVO 250GB, which seems quite good, but I figured it could be wise to ask the professionals before I go out and spend $250 on a storage device. Any other suggestions for around the same price or should I go for a pair of EVO's?
I will use it with Cubase 7, if thats useful to know :lol:
pattexer
Poster
Posts: 39 Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 12:00 am Location: Norway

Re: New SSD

Post by Scramble »

Whether EVOs or not, only buy Samsung.
Scramble
Frequent Poster
Posts: 2431 Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2002 12:00 am
 

Re: New SSD

Post by Gerhard Westphalen »

I have 2 intel 520 SSDs and haven't had any problems. I believe they are about 2 years old and get used daily. I haven't used any other SSDs.
Gerhard Westphalen
Regular
Posts: 226 Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2010 12:00 am Location: Calgary, Canada

Re: New SSD

Post by Nazard »

Is the SSD for OS and applications or as a secondary disk?

If for OS/applications, 500Gb is very large and you double the risk of failure by having them in RAID 0. Having SATA 6Gbs rather than 3Gbs will make a bigger difference in speed than RAID 0. New SSDs are quick (despite the variance in read/write times). Better to have a boot disk only for OS/applications, easier to manage a disk image etc. and recover in case of failure.

Currently I have two PCs which have Samsung 840 250GB boot disks and I have Win 7 Pro and a lot of applications, but still have >50% disk space left on both.
Nazard
Frequent Poster
Posts: 796 Joined: Sat May 15, 2010 12:00 am

Re: New SSD

Post by Scramble »

Intel SSDs are good, but the people who know, like Pete Kaine from Scan, will tell you that Samsungs SSDs have by far the lowest failure rate.
Scramble
Frequent Poster
Posts: 2431 Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2002 12:00 am
 

Re: New SSD

Post by pattexer »

I was thinking about the 250GB version, and use it for OS and some vital programs and plugins (samples).
Don't know if its correct, but I heard that using SSD with the os, the system speed does not get slowed down when installing other applications as well?
I'm doing lots of picture editing as well, and really like to load big raw files fast, so thats why I want some more space besides OS :)
pattexer
Poster
Posts: 39 Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 12:00 am Location: Norway

Re: New SSD

Post by Nazard »

For image files from a camera card, I use a Kingston USB 3.0 card reader and using Lightroom 5, import the images using 'Copy as DNG' to one WD caviar black 1Tb disk, simultaneously copying to a second WD 2Tb disk, both running SATA 6Gbs. Then the images are copied to a NAS box running RAID 1, then later onto another PC several miles away. Loading and manipulating large image files is quick due to the HDD high transfer speeds and plenty of RAM.But there are many variations will also work well too.

You could have the OS and applications, including plugins on the 'boot disk, 250 Gb SSD, then samples and other data on another 250 Gb SSD. Writing down what you want to do may be a useful exercise: there are many variables to consider!
Nazard
Frequent Poster
Posts: 796 Joined: Sat May 15, 2010 12:00 am

Re: New SSD

Post by Martin Walker »

Trevor Johnson wrote:You could have the OS and applications, including plugins on the 'boot disk, 250 Gb SSD, then samples and other data on another 250 Gb SSD. Writing down what you want to do may be a useful exercise: there are many variables to consider!

Indeed - a very useful exercise 8-)

I've got a 128GB SSD in my current PC, and have partitioned it into two halves - 64GB for WIndows + Applications (I'm careful with what I install), and the other 64GB for all my plug-ins and various larger softsynth/plug-ins such as Alchemy and Nebula.

Martin
User avatar
Martin Walker
Moderator
Posts: 22577 Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2010 8:44 am Location: Cornwall, UK

Re: New SSD

Post by Pete Kaine »

As popular opinion appears to have already reached: Samsung > Intel > Everything else.

And yes, we certainly like the Evo's.
Pete Kaine
Frequent Poster
Posts: 3217 Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2003 12:00 am Location: Manchester
Kit to fuel your G.A.S - https://www.scan.co.uk/shop/pro-audio

Re: New SSD

Post by pattexer »

Alright!
Thanks to everyone :lol:

Now, next question: dedicated Raid controller or the motherboard? :O
pattexer
Poster
Posts: 39 Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 12:00 am Location: Norway

Re: New SSD

Post by johnny h »

pattexer wrote:Alright!
Thanks to everyone :lol:

Now, next question: dedicated Raid controller or the motherboard? :O

Raid is a total waste of time with a SSD.
johnny h
Frequent Poster
Posts: 4405 Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2006 12:00 am

Re: New SSD

Post by pattexer »

Really? :O
From the articles I have red they seem to disagree with you

"Right now there's nothing SATA III based that can outperform Samsung's SSD 840 EVO. Running a pair of 500GB EVO's in RAID is probably the ultimate storage solution for the price available today. For little more than the cost of a 1 terabyte EVO or a 960GB M500, you can have twice the performance to go along with all that luscious capacity.

RAIDing two or more drives together provides you with storage that takes performance to the next level and is something I recommend you try. Once you go RAID, there's no going back."

http://www.tweaktown.com/articles/5801/samsung-840-evo-500gb-raid-0-ssd-report/index13.html

But I have never tried it, so i cannot say for myself...
Anyone else have any thoughts on that?
pattexer
Poster
Posts: 39 Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 12:00 am Location: Norway

Re: New SSD

Post by johnny h »

pattexer wrote:Really? :O
From the articles I have red they seem to disagree with you

"Right now there's nothing SATA III based that can outperform Samsung's SSD 840 EVO. Running a pair of 500GB EVO's in RAID is probably the ultimate storage solution for the price available today. For little more than the cost of a 1 terabyte EVO or a 960GB M500, you can have twice the performance to go along with all that luscious capacity.

RAIDing two or more drives together provides you with storage that takes performance to the next level and is something I recommend you try. Once you go RAID, there's no going back."

http://www.tweaktown.com/articles/5801/samsung-840-evo-500gb...

But I have never tried it, so i cannot say for myself...
Anyone else have any thoughts on that?

Well it depends what do you want to do. If you want to run benchmarks, go for raid. If you want to halve your potential for hard drive failure and still be able to run virtually unlimited audio tracks and sample streams then one SSD will serve you perfectly well.
johnny h
Frequent Poster
Posts: 4405 Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2006 12:00 am

Re: New SSD

Post by Richard Graham »

It's true you would double your chances of hard disk failure if you were to stripe (rather than mirror) a pair of SSDs using RAID. I suppose in favour of the idea, your sample instruments would load in half the time.

OTOH, wouldn't it be possible to do a mirrored RAID on two SSDs that halved the chance of failure, by duplicating (rather than splitting) the data across the two drives, and also provided twice the throughput by reading complementary parts of the data off the two disks in parallel?

Maybe that's what this form of RAID does, I don't know?
User avatar
Richard Graham
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1800 Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2006 12:00 am Location: Gateshead, UK
"If a nail is bent, stop hitting it."

Re: New SSD

Post by Agharta »

Keep in mind when thinking about RAID the size of the dataset you are using.
A 100MB file read at 500MBs takes 200ms to transfer assuming the whole file needs to be transferred.
So RAID at best will save you 100ms for the actual transfer.
Then you have to look at the time needed to process the file which in some cases is much longer than the read time.
So say the whole process from opening the file, copying it to memory and initialising it takes 1 or 2 seconds. The 100ms saving then becomes a saving of 10 or 5%.
Most tests just show synthetic benchmarks which don’t take into account an individual’s real world usage patterns.
I’m not saying you can’t get real world application performance benefits but do some research.
This is interesting:
http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/forum/ha ... iew-8.html
Agharta
Frequent Poster
Posts: 4350 Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 12:00 am

Re: New SSD

Post by Agharta »

You have to consider Trim when using RAID as not all SATA controllers support it with RAID.
Agharta
Frequent Poster
Posts: 4350 Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 12:00 am

Re: New SSD

Post by pattexer »

Thanks for answer!
I guess I will use it with relative large sample libraries like Ivory, Steven Slate Drums and Friedlander violin. If the difference is only 5-10% i might just use the second disk as more storage space though. hmm....
pattexer
Poster
Posts: 39 Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 12:00 am Location: Norway

Re: New SSD

Post by johnny h »

Richard Graham wrote:It's true you would double your chances of hard disk failure if you were to stripe (rather than mirror) a pair of SSDs using RAID. I suppose in favour of the idea, your sample instruments would load in half the time.

OTOH, wouldn't it be possible to do a mirrored RAID on two SSDs that halved the chance of failure, by duplicating (rather than splitting) the data across the two drives, and also provided twice the throughput by reading complementary parts of the data off the two disks in parallel?

Maybe that's what this form of RAID does, I don't know?

Yes, RAID 1 operates in this way. It will still increase read performance (but not write) while decreasing the chances of failure so there are benefits of this setup. The cost will be halving the space available as the drives are mirrored.
johnny h
Frequent Poster
Posts: 4405 Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2006 12:00 am

Re: New SSD

Post by pattexer »

Hmm, I guess Raid 1 would be the best choice then, since I will be mostly dependent of the read speed. What should I've done without you guys :beamup:
pattexer
Poster
Posts: 39 Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 12:00 am Location: Norway

Re: New SSD

Post by Guest »

These are some SSD you can choose maybe it can help you ..

1 Samsung 850 Evo.
6 SanDisk Extreme PRO 480 GB.
2 Toshiba Q300 480GB.
7 Integral P Series 4.
3 Samsung 960 Pro.
8 Kingston KC400 SSDNow.
4 Samsung 960 Evo.
9 WD Blue SSD 1TB.
User avatar
Guest

Re: New SSD

Post by Johnsy »

Johnny H wrote: If you want to halve your potential for hard drive failure and still be able to run virtually unlimited audio tracks and sample streams then one SSD will serve you perfectly well.


Richard Graham wrote:It's true you would double your chances of hard disk failure if you were to stripe (rather than mirror) a pair of SSDs using RAID.

If the overall capacity is the same, the data risk profile is identical.

Consider a) a single 500GB SSD vs. b) 2 x 250GB SSDs in Raid 0 (striped)

In both cases, the failure of a single drive results in the loss of 500GB of data.

(Raid 0 offers the incidental advantage that in case b), you're still the owner of a functional 250GB drive; so while your data is no safer, your hardware investment is better protected.)
Last edited by Johnsy on Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:03 am, edited 6 times in total.
Johnsy
Frequent Poster
Posts: 572 Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 12:00 am

Re: New SSD

Post by johnny h »

Johnsy wrote:
Johnny H wrote: If you want to halve your potential for hard drive failure and still be able to run virtually unlimited audio tracks and sample streams then one SSD will serve you perfectly well.


Richard Graham wrote:It's true you would double your chances of hard disk failure if you were to stripe (rather than mirror) a pair of SSDs using RAID.

If the overall capacity is the same, the data risk profile is identical.

Consider a) a single 500GB SSD vs. b) 2 x 250GB SSDs in Raid 0 (striped)

In both cases, the failure of a single drive results in the loss of 500GB of data.

The chances of failure of each drive is the same. If you are using 2 drives, the chance of data loss in this setup is therefore doubled.
(Raid 0 offers the incidental advantage that in case b), you're still the owner of a functional 250GB drive; so while your data is no safer, your hardware investment is better protected.)

I don't think that's much of an advantage. Storage costs come down all the time, so your 250GB drive will almost certainly be worth less than when you bought it. Its better to get a fast Samsung PCI SSD, make sure its backed up properly and forget about RAID altogether.
johnny h
Frequent Poster
Posts: 4405 Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2006 12:00 am

Re: New SSD

Post by Johnsy »

johnny h wrote:The chances of failure of each drive is the same.

Precisely. The likelihood of the failure of any SINGLE drive is the same.

If you are using 2 drives, the chance of data loss in this setup is therefore doubled.

No. It would only be doubled if the simultaneous failure of two drives was equally as likely as the failure of a single drive - but of course it isn't.

Johnsy wrote:(Raid 0 offers the incidental advantage that in case b), you're still the owner of a functional 250GB drive; so while your data is no safer, your hardware investment is better protected.)


Johnny h wrote:I don't think that's much of an advantage. Storage costs come down all the time, so your 250GB drive will almost certainly be worth less than when you bought it. Its better to get a fast Samsung PCI SSD, make sure its backed up properly and forget about RAID altogether.

A 250GB SSD is a 250GB SSD. It's 'worth' more than nothing. As for whether one strategy is better than another, that depends on many factors.
Last edited by Johnsy on Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:23 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Johnsy
Frequent Poster
Posts: 572 Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 12:00 am

Re: New SSD

Post by johnny h »

Johnsy wrote:
johnny h wrote:The chances of failure of each drive is the same.

Precisely. The likelihood of the failure of any SINGLE drive is the same.

If you are using 2 drives, the chance of data loss in this setup is therefore doubled.

No. It would only be doubled if the simultaneous failure of two drives was equally as likely as the failure of a single drive - but of course it isn't.

No. The failure of 1 of 2 drives is twice as likely as the failure of 1 of 1 drives. Either drive failure destroys the partition in a RAID 0 setup.

RAID 1 simply mirrors both drives, resulting in marginal (and not guaranteed) increases in read speed. However, as the data partition will work with only one drive, you do decrease the risk of failure of the data partition (failure of 1 of 1 drives vs 2 of 2 drives). It will not however protect against destructive electric surges, viruses / ransomware, fire or theft.

As you need two drives for this setup you are doubling the price of the drives before you add RAID controllers and associated software.
A 250GB SSD is a 250GB SSD. It's 'worth' more than nothing. As for whether one strategy is better than another, that depends on many factors.

Its 'worth' more than nothing, but almost always falls in value over time and therefore will be worth a lot less than when you bought it. 250GB SSDs used to go for £400-500. How much would you pay for a second hand one today?
johnny h
Frequent Poster
Posts: 4405 Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2006 12:00 am

Re: New SSD

Post by Johnsy »

johnny h wrote:The failure of 1 of 2 drives is twice as likely as the failure of 1 of 1 drives

So - RAID or otherwise - we should never have more than one drive in any computer?
Last edited by Johnsy on Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
Johnsy
Frequent Poster
Posts: 572 Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 12:00 am
Post Reply