New SM-Pro digital mixers - Musikmesse

[dickiefunk]

Just seen these being announced at Musikmesse :-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sicZ2nH6ImQ

Prices rumoured

uMiX Mini - €199.99
uMiX 12 - €399.99
uMiX 16 - €699.99
uMiX 24 - €999.99

[Sam Spoons]

Those are cheap! I'm not sure using a browser to connect to the control software is a great idea though.

[seablade]

I have seen a couple of announcement recently on the digital mixer front, this plus the Yammie QL series and the Midas X-Pro series/upgrade for the Pro series. Interesting stuff to keep an eye on I think.

I will say I don't necessarily trust SM Pro Audio, but I don't have to much of a problem with using HTML5 to control it, so long as it is done right. The question is going to be, will it be done right? But to give some reference, there are some companies trying to get full DAWs using HTML/etc. so it wouldn't surprise me at all if it could be effectively utilized for control surfaces.

Seablade

[dickiefunk]

I have to admit I am slightly nervous about the build quality of these considering their very cheap price? Also, from what I understand from the video clip I posted, the 16 and 24 version will have better preamps?

I'm looking to add a mini digital mixer to my live setup when I need a small system for acoustic restaurant/hotel bar gigs. I quite like the feature set of the QSC TouchMix 8 (particularly the built in touch screen) but for $100 less I could get a Behringer X18 which has way more features and I/O's & the SM-Pro U-Mix 16 ($699) also has more I/O for even less money!

Maybe with Behringers recent price drop on their X32 range of desks this may result in QSC lowering their price on the TouchMix range? Saying that it is already a very reasonable price but with fierce competition their price maybe offers less value?

[Sam Spoons]

For your solo/duo gigs a Mackie DL806 would do the job and they're being sold off for silly money right now http://www.thomann.de/gb/mackie_dl_806.htm they have a certain pedigree, sound very good and have the best iPad app in the business

[dickiefunk]

For your solo/duo gigs a Mackie DL806 would do the job and they're being sold off for silly money right now http://www.thomann.de/gb/mackie_dl_806.htm they have a certain pedigree, sound very good and have the best iPad app in the business

Yes I have considered one of those but it doesn't have digitally controllable preamps. Also, I'm not a fan of their iPad app. I downloaded them all and personally prefer the Behringer X-32 Mix and Presonus StudioLive app. The new version of the Soundcraft app isn't too bad either.

Also, the Behringer iX18 is estimated at $799 and I'm guessing the UK price isn't going to be too far off the price of the DL806. With all the added features of the IX18 it would be a no brainer for me personally.

[Chevytraveller]

This U-Mix is very, very impressive.. exactly what I have been looking for.. can't wait to try one out

[OneEng]

Those are cheap! I'm not sure using a browser to connect to the control software is a great idea though.

You would be right Sam

I have evaluated many cross-platform development environments for forward programs my company is working on. HTML5 has many drawbacks. The biggest one is that it is thousands of times slower than native applications. Right on the heals of this drawback is the issue of different browsers .... and in fact even different versions of the same browser can interpret your HTLM5 code very differently resulting in a validation nightmare and a constantly moving target to hit.

X32 is currently using the JUCE library and native C++ compiling for their cross-platform application development. The JUCE library is pretty much a sound equipment library and cross-platform environment which is interesting to me. It doesn't have the richness of some other cross-platform environments, but for its intended purpose, it is pretty good.

[seablade]

Those are cheap! I'm not sure using a browser to connect to the control software is a great idea though.

You would be right Sam

I have evaluated many cross-platform development environments for forward programs my company is working on. HTML5 has many drawbacks. The biggest one is that it is thousands of times slower than native applications.

Not really much of an issue when you are only using it for a control surface however. Actually if you notice, most of the latency and problems with iPad control surfaces come more from the lower layers of the OSI stack rather than the upper layers.

Right on the heals of this drawback is the issue of different browsers .... and in fact even different versions of the same browser can interpret your HTLM5 code very differently resulting in a validation nightmare and a constantly moving target to hit.

This can be true certainly, but in practice it doesn't seem to much of an issue to many options. Although I will admit it can be something to keep in mind for ongoing upkeep.

X32 is currently using the JUCE library and native C++ compiling for their cross-platform application development. The JUCE library is pretty much a sound equipment library and cross-platform environment which is interesting to me. It doesn't have the richness of some other cross-platform environments, but for its intended purpose, it is pretty good.

The Juce library is fairly popular for many things audio related certainly. Particularly for things like plugins, though IIRC there are a few DAWs written in it.

Seablade

[N.icholas]

had a go with their demo - didn't seem to work v well on IE but ok
On Chrome. Seemed reasonable.
Would need to see what their preamps are like - in house plus only 4 effects (also in house) didn't see any inserts. The eq only 3 band but interface to this and the compressor quite nice ( though couldn't see a side chain). Also had a permissions config for Musos mixing their own mons
Interesting to see if/how they develop the firmware
box looked quite sturdy & also can chain the larger models for more ch count.
Seems to be aimed at bands mixing themselves - using it as a stage box and either mix from on stage or from a FOh position.

But the idea of a cross platform html5 interface good if stable - maybe should be taken up by others - too many iPad only out there.

[OneEng]

@seablade,

Once you start doing things like live VU meters and especially any RTA graphs, speed starts to become a very real issue. In general, any screen repaint where you aren't doing OpenGL calls can quickly start giving your app a slow feel to it.

In general I agree. A simple control surface shouldn't be that intensive, but the devil is in the details. For instance, when you modify a channel PEQ, how many times a second is the unit actually updated ..... or does it wait to update until you complete the drag event? These are things that you would only know if you actually got to do something real with the mixer.

It has been my experience that the ethernet com on the iPad seems to be pretty snappy to me. Based on some initial testing, it appears to be at least as efficient as the PC version. Do you have some specific experience that has shown some latency issues?

I am not a fan of HTML 5 as a method of making cross-platform applications. Everything I do requires very high performance, so that could be what is tainting my thoughts on the subject.

The reason the iPad is so frequently used for these kinds of applications is that you can write a single application natively, and it will work just fine on every member of the family in iOS. This is not the case for current Android development (yet ... but it is getting better).

The price on this thing is incredible. I will be watching for reviews on it when it is released.

[seablade]

@seablade,

Once you start doing things like live VU meters and especially any RTA graphs, speed starts to become a very real issue. In general, any screen repaint where you aren't doing OpenGL calls can quickly start giving your app a slow feel to it.

Catch being that just because you are using HTML to display, doesn't mean you have to use HTML to process. Most modern browsers obviously can continue communication via JS to handle other protocols, but even we are starting to see a move to utilizing JS to make GL based calls as well, see the recent demo of the Unreal4 engine in Firefox. So while you are correct in that if you are transmitting the full image data over the bandwidth and repainting HTML can be an issue for speed, for instances where you need speed there are still other options available as well than simply relying on HTML5 by itself and still remaining in an HTML browser. I would be willing to bet that is what most of these apps are doing in fact, but frankly there is always a latency involved in drawing VU meters and RTAs. I see it even with native apps, and it just has to do with a small variety of variables, ranging from metering latency, to transmission latency, to redraw latency, all adding up. To give an example, in Ardour(Open Source DAW) the code to recalculate and redraw meters was written in straight SSE specifically to speed it up, and that doesn't even involve a network:)

In general I agree. A simple control surface shouldn't be that intensive, but the devil is in the details. For instance, when you modify a channel PEQ, how many times a second is the unit actually updated ..... or does it wait to update until you complete the drag event? These are things that you would only know if you actually got to do something real with the mixer.

The same issues about updates hold true about any control surface however, whether HTML based or not. Deciding how often to transmit/update ties in to anything you do really.

It has been my experience that the ethernet com on the iPad seems to be pretty snappy to me. Based on some initial testing, it appears to be at least as efficient as the PC version. Do you have some specific experience that has shown some latency issues?

Any time you are using an iPad over WiFi for instance, and in particular a crowded WiFi you can have issues, and yes I have. Primarily just a matter of available bandwidth really.

I am not a fan of HTML 5 as a method of making cross-platform applications. Everything I do requires very high performance, so that could be what is tainting my thoughts on the subject.

I am not saying I am a huge fan of it for this, just that the limits of it are being pushed continuously, and it is far more capable for for more than we may have even dreamed of a few years back for instance.

The reason the iPad is so frequently used for these kinds of applications is that you can write a single application natively, and it will work just fine on every member of the family in iOS. This is not the case for current Android development (yet ... but it is getting better).

I would say there are even a few caveats to that even, having had to write a few UIs for an iPad, but primarily due to screen resolution issues. Not nearly as bad as Android in that regards I agree.

But I would say far more likely the reason the iPad gets used for these is it was entrenched in the market long before Android came out, and most people had already invested in iPad development before Android was an option. You are seeing more options appearing for Android these days, but by far the most common platform is still iPad, if for no other reason than it was there first. I could draw some strange parallels to the state of other things in our audio industry along those lines:)

Seablade

[John SMP]

Hi Guys,

The uMix control software has been almost exclusively developed using oop style JS for logic, HTML5 canvas and web sockets for display and data transfer respectively. Display redraw is pixel based using canvas for speed and consistency. Control data is bi-directional via web sockets and is both reliable and fast enough for control purpose applications including multi-channel live meter feedback. All updates including display synchronisation between connected uMiX client browsers and changes to the mixer DSP status are immediate. There is no waiting for drag events to finish etc. There is no audio communication.

Ethernet connectivity is provided for those concerned about Wi-Fi bandwidth issues in heavily populated Wi-Fi environments.

You can get a feel for the software by visiting the "early access" demonstration in your browser at the SM Pro Audio website here: http://www.smproaudio.com/umixweb/

We encourage all feedback via the website. Our team is seriously working hard to ensure the uMiX software is thoroughly tested and includes many of the best features customers have requested in readiness for scheduled shipping around July.

John
SM Pro Audio

[seablade]

Hi Guys,

The uMix control software has been almost exclusively developed using oop style JS for logic, HTML5 canvas and web sockets for display and data transfer respectively. Display redraw is pixel based using canvas for speed and consistency. Control data is bi-directional via web sockets and is both reliable and fast enough for control purpose applications including multi-channel live meter feedback. All updates including display synchronisation between connected uMiX client browsers and changes to the mixer DSP status are immediate. There is no waiting for drag events to finish etc. There is no audio communication.

Ethernet connectivity is provided for those concerned about Wi-Fi bandwidth issues in heavily populated Wi-Fi environments.

You can get a feel for the software by visiting the "early access" demonstration in your browser at the SM Pro Audio website here: http://www.smproaudio.com/umixweb/

We encourage all feedback via the website. Our team is seriously working hard to ensure the uMiX software is thoroughly tested and includes many of the best features customers have requested in readiness for scheduled shipping around July.

John
SM Pro Audio

Well that is one way to end a friendly programming debate:)

Seablade

[Hugh Robjohns]

Thanks for the information, John, and welcome aboard the SOS Forums.

H

[John SMP]

Thanks Hugh,

John
SMP

[Dave71]

Nice looking piece of kit, would be very interested to see a SOS review one day.

As a novice i have seen a couple of things that IMO would be a benefit in future development.
a 30 band eq for main/aux
eq for the player
mute all & mute effx buttons on the 'home' screen

haven't read the manual so it may already do the following
rename channels with ability to add picture
re order channels so if only using channels 1 to 8, having the effects/aux next would be useful

I've played with multiple browsers and tabs in safari so getting channels, aux busses & effects across 2 screens is achievable but the browser resizing is unstable on the aux & fx screen. Maybe its just the online demo thats playing up.

Other than that, software wise it does all i would need

[John SMP]

Nice looking piece of kit, would be very interested to see a SOS review one day.

We hope so too

As a novice i have seen a couple of things that IMO would be a benefit in future development.
a 30 band eq for main/aux
eq for the player
mute all & mute effx buttons on the 'home' screen

Thanks for the feedback regarding EQ. We do however feel that independent 15 band EQ provided on each Aux and both sides (L/R) of the Main output will be sufficient for most applications.

EQ on the media player channel is something we are considering.

Mute All and Mute FX is proved from the Total view page, from key commands (if driving with a from a desktop/laptop), and from the main mix page with the slide-out panel enabled. The slide-out panel is enabled manually by clicking the uMiX button on the top right hand corner of the interface. It can also be enabled by tapping the space bar of your qwerty keyboard. You can pin the slide-out to the right hand side in mix mode at all times by a setting in the Settings->Config page.

haven't read the manual so it may already do the following
rename channels with ability to add picture
re order channels so if only using channels 1 to 8, having the effects/aux next would be useful

The uMiX software allows for channel renaming, but does not provide the ability to add picture at this time. We chose to retain longer faders rather than eat into UI space. If images are something that users demand we could add this as a possible future roadmap candidate.

The reordering is possible by using the View groups feature. Up to 6 view groups can be setup at the users discretion. Open the Total View-> Views tab to assign your view group channel selections. View groups are then accessible from the slide-out panel.

I've played with multiple browsers and tabs in safari so getting channels, aux busses & effects across 2 screens is achievable but the browser resizing is unstable on the aux & fx screen. Maybe its just the online demo thats playing up.

Other than that, software wise it does all i would need

Thanks for your feedback.

John
SM Pro Audio

[Dave71]

Thank you for that information John. I really should read manuals.

[rocklander]

I'm interested in this thread. am considering buying the umix 16 when it arrives here in new zealand.. I love the idea that there is no reliance on the management interface to have a pulse in order to run... am I right in assuming that the dl1608 needs an ipad to run at all? (as in, if the ipad explodes in my hands the dl1608 will go silent, or am I making an ass out of me and umption?).

also loving the fact that any html5 device can drive it.. we've a 50/50 mix of droids and fruit devices in the band.

[Sam Spoons]

You are right about the DL1608 to a point. It does use/need an iPad for control but if the iPad loses connection/dies/spontaneously combusts your audio will continue exactly as it did immediately before the iPads sad demise. Of course the only control you will have from then on will be via the trim/gain controls this is somewhat limiting. OTOH if your iPad has a temporary loss of connection/etc then when to regains it's connection you will again have full control. The uMix has the same limitation except that is supports much a wider range of control devices. I would say the likelihood of your iPad failing completely and irretrievably is no greater than any other piece of electronics (probably somewhat less than most other kit), be it the DL itself, a uMix 16, your laptop or other tablet, even analogue desks fail.

I have been using my DL1608 for nearly 2 years now and have had no problems that couldn't be put down to operator error. TBF the current production version has had some issues with a very few units exhibiting brief disconnection, and more worrying, bursts of white noise when using the iPad channel for music playback (both cases only when docked, no problems have been reported with wireless iPads). Older ones don't seem to have had the problem (mine never has).

To get the same number of mic pre's as the DL1608 you'd need the uMix 24 which is the same price over here as the DL, if 12 mic press and a few line in's is enough then the uMix 16 would do it. In both cases the router is built in (unlike the DL which needs a separate route) and any web browser device will function for control not, as in the case of the DL, only iPad.

The only other thing I'd add is that you try the uMix app to see if it suits you, when I tried the demo last year there was very high latency. The DL Master Fader app is well developed and very nice to use (also available for free download/demo).

[rocklander]

thanks for that Sam

I actually had the dl at home last week with my ipad. I specifically bought the ipad for the dl and one other app and I'm not exactly enamoured with it. it's 'okay', but trying out the interface versus the live one at umix I can see each has its own wins and losses. I didn't notice any latency in response (online at least) as being more or less on the umix against the mackie (and I am somewhat of a mackie fanboi what with a pair of dlm12, pair of the new thump12 and srm350 v3 for gigging). I actually had connection issues (which scared me a lil to be honest).. I'd try to save a (is it a 'scene".. forgotten the terminology already) which had pics attached to the channels and the application would crash.. somehow the scnee got corrupted or something? I had to kinda copy it once I'd set it up the way I wanted it, then save that scene and delete the corrupt one.. all fine and dandy at home, but at a gig where there's already pressures on me that would have left me feeling pretty uncomfortable.

good to know that failure of the device wont leave me high and dry! my fear is that I bought the fruit device 2nd hand (just cant justify the exorbitant price of a device which has lower spec in every way compared to a droid in the same market). but at least now I can can make a more informed diceision once I get to test drive the umix.

droids have latency for sure when it comes to screensound but I can spare ½ milisecond on a fader .. not so much if I'm trying to keep a beat! (so perhaps the delay feature may not be so hot in the html5? unsure).

two members of the band already have fruit devices but the rest of us have droids, I always carry a spare windows 7 tablet, and use a win8 one for my lyrics, so whilst you're right in that any device may fail, I have a whole plethora of backups available at any gig with which I could connect to regain control... I've no good reason to specifically buy a bunch of apples just so I have a backup.. not when there are lovely new subs (mine sounds woooonderful but weighs about the same as a nissan 4X4 patrol), new cars to buy (to drag my gear from gig to gig), pedals to build, par cans and fun whizzy spinny lights ... and most of all guitars! to look at investing what lil spare coin I have...

feature request I'd like to see on the umix (which may exist, but doesn't appear to be there on the live web version.. maybe cos it's live/web) is to export settings/scenes/shows.. I could save them to a number of devices.. they should really just be an xml file... I'm not sure I could see apple doing that cos accessing file shares without it being some kinda cloud info-gathering "all your data is belong to us" solution isn't really their MO

[rocklander]

Thank you for that information John. I really should read manuals.

to be fair... I'd love to read the manual... I can't seem to find it on their site though...

[rocklander]

so has anyone seen one of these IRL yet or are they vapourware?

[Sam Spoons]

I certainly haven't, Thomann are listing it as "not yet available" so vapourware it is at present by the look of things.