Neil Young's new 'PonoPlayer'

[Frisonic]

here is the link to a new, portable high quality digital download player that has been developed and launched this week (5th Jan) by Canadian rock and roll veteran Neil Young. The project aims to present songs "as they first sound during studio recording sessions", using "high-resolution" 24-bit 192kHz audio instead of "the compressed audio inferiority that MP3s offer". That's Mr Young's marketing script and I'm sure we all get the general idea. However, its not cheap if its competing with the smart phone everybody already has in their pocket. You won't see much change out of $400 to buy the player and the actual downloads are apparently going to set you back between $15 and $25 an album. And yes, its all about albums and it won't help you if you want to listen to streaming sites! Neil Young is famously slightly mad, bad and dangerous to know. So, is this new venture totally insane or only slightly mad? Who reckons music consumers will be seduced by the prospect of 24 bits in their pockets? I would also ask why he has decided to call it a 'pono'? But apparently its the Hawaiian word for 'righteousness'. So that's alright then...

Any Forum members thinking of buying a Pono? Or more interestingly investing in the format? I'm going to wish him luck and expect it to be a commercial failure. But I'd be delighted were he to prove me wrong.

[johnny h]

The main claim is that it uses 'high resolution' 24 bit 192kHz audio, which is the audio equivalent of buying a TV that can display ultraviolet light.

You can quite easily get around the MP3 issue on almost any phone or iPod by using wavs. Perhaps its going to have a better headphone amp and DA converters that a normal phone, but they aren't making any claims to, so probably there is nothing special inside.

Its pointless and unlikely to succeed in the market. You can't even stream audio like you can with a smartphone.

[Tomás Mulcahy]

LOL@ UV TV!

Wasn't there a thread on this last year?

IIRC they had the specs of the DA and headphone amp on the site last year. They were using one of the latest chips, but I don't remember the amp specs.

But yes any portable player can play uncompressed audio, and 192kHz for playback is ill informed.

[Wonks]

I know someone who's had one for a while (so not quite sure why the 'launch' date was the 5th Jan). He likes it a lot but it is rather restrictive in that you are reliant on sites selling high quality versions of songs. I'll see if he's formed any more opinions of it since I last spoke to him about it.

[Frisonic]

I know someone who's had one for a while (so not quite sure why the 'launch' date was the 5th Jan).

From Pono's wikipedia page "Production and shipments to backers started in October 2014, with shipments to the general public expected to begin in Q1 2015."

Look forward to hearing your friends considered opinion.

[Wonks]

He's just annoyingly deleted his facebook account! Back to email.

[Logarhythm]

The main claim is that it uses 'high resolution' 24 bit 192kHz audio, which is the audio equivalent of buying a TV that can display ultraviolet light.

An e-cookie for you sir
Is it overly misanthropic to suspect that there would actually be a market for these if someone were to start making them?
("Being able to reproduce colours at wavelengths all the way down to 10nm really allows the image to breath, even though I can't actually see beyond about 400nm etc etc...")

As for Pono, I'm sure we've all had the same thought while listening to a track on CD/Wav/Flac - "This is fine, but it would be much better if they tied it to a proprietary player and quadrupled the file size to carry loads of information that is several multiples above the upper limit of my hearing capabilities"

"Benefits" aside, is there even that much out there that they can release native at 24/192, i.e. without it just being upsampled from 16/44 - 24/96 (or transferred from ye olde tape?!)?

[Wonks]

I've had a reply. He's very happy with it. He's done comparisons using a CD Walkman and identical albums using the same headphones, and the Pono versions have a lot more depth and clarity to them. The reverb tails seem longer and more detailed.

He generally buys 24/96 FLAC tracks and when he plays these back through his Event studio monitors, he says it's like having the band in the studio with you. But he knows that the HD tracks are overpriced do he won't be buying many of them. He tends to use http://www.hdtracks.co.uk/

Now how much of this is the player and how much is the fact that the HD recordings are probably very well remastered with minimal compression and limiting for maximum dynamic range is another matter.

[forumuser927284]

Only 24 bit?? Pah!

[johnny h]

I've had a reply. He's very happy with it. He's done comparisons using a CD Walkman and identical albums using the same headphones, and the Pono versions have a lot more depth and clarity to them. The reverb tails seem longer and more detailed.

I'm not sure how old the CD walkman is, but bare in mind that budget DAC converters have got much, much better in recent years. A bargain basement DAC in a CD walkman from 10 years ago is likely to sound much worse than one you'd find in a recent smartphone.

[Frisonic]

I've had a reply. He's very happy with it. He's done comparisons using a CD Walkman and identical albums using the same headphones, and the Pono versions have a lot more depth and clarity to them. The reverb tails seem longer and more detailed.

I'm not sure how old the CD walkman is, but bare in mind that budget DAC converters have got much, much better in recent years. A bargain basement DAC in a CD walkman from 10 years ago is likely to sound much worse than one you'd find in a recent smartphone.

But the converters in smart phones are still cheap nasty ones even today, no? I think you've asked a very good question regarding the components but... I'm actually getting quite interested in having one of these. Wonks has relayed some very positive feedback. And I quite like the idea of helping Mr Young grow old disgracefully. I'll just have to see how much spare spending money I have after this spring's coming studio and session bills.

[chris...]

But the converters in smart phones are still cheap nasty ones even today, no?

Today's cheap'n'nasty is far better than older cheap'n'nasty.

That said, the subsequent analog output stage is probably as or more critical than the conversion.

Best to compare a non-pono player (e.g phone) connected to a half-decent headphone amp.

[shurikt]

Monty at xiph.org wrote a great story a couple of years ago about this:

Neil Young's 24-192 and why it makes no sense

[Pete Kaine]

We're missing the most crucial question here... can he fit the damn thing in his pocket?

Almost a bargain compared with the Sony at least.

http://blog.newegg.com/sonys-walkman-zx ... end-audio/

[Hugh Robjohns]

Monty at xiph.org wrote a great story a couple of years ago about this:

Neil Young's 24-192 and why it makes no sense

His stuff is always superb and totally accurate, and I often recommend his videos on digital conversion for the unconvinced. Highly recommended.

H

[Hugh Robjohns]

I quite like the idea of helping Mr Young grow old disgracefully.

Seems a lot of people did. Didn't his fundraiser scam, sorry scheme, deliver $6.5m or something for his pony, sorry pono, idea?

H

[Wonks]

You've got a heart of gold, Hugh.

[zenguitar]

Ponohontas, Marlon Brando, and me.

Andy

[Frisonic]

You've got a heart of gold, Hugh.

Yes, it has been quite a harvest! Actually the money mostly came from a savvy backer in Silicon Valley, as I understand it. Did it really only cost $6.5m to develop? They might well get that back. As for it fitting in a pocket, it looks bit like one of those oversized toblorone bars to me. Pretty chunky. And I do find the yellow casing makes it look a bit like a personal maritime emergency distress beacon. That may of course be deliberate… Its a very weird product.

[Martin Walker]

Monty at xiph.org wrote a great story a couple of years ago about this:

Neil Young's 24-192 and why it makes no sense

His stuff is always superb and totally accurate, and I often recommend his videos on digital conversion for the unconvinced. Highly recommended.

Agreed - I've just this moment finished watching this one entitled 'Episode 2: Digital Show & Tell', which should be required viewing for anyone who uses or abuses digital audio:

http://xiph.org/video/vid2.shtml

Exceptionally clear delivery!

Martin

[Wonks]

Brilliant stuff Shurikt and Martin. Thank you!

[ronmac]

Monty at xiph.org wrote a great story a couple of years ago about this:

Neil Young's 24-192 and why it makes no sense

His stuff is always superb and totally accurate, and I often recommend his videos on digital conversion for the unconvinced. Highly recommended.

Agreed - I've just this moment finished watching this one entitled 'Episode 2: Digital Show & Tell', which should be required viewing for anyone who uses or abuses digital audio:

http://xiph.org/video/vid2.shtml

Exceptionally clear delivery!

Martin

Just downloaded both of Monty's videos and will keep them in my "Argument Stoppers" folder

[alexis]

Re: Pono, would it be wrong to wonder if ... with the player swinging around one's neck, the stereo image would be shifting significantly, at least somewhat compromising the effort that went into such high-quality audio?

[Wonks]

[Frisonic]

Re: Pono, would it be wrong to wonder if ... with the player swinging around one's neck, the stereo image would be shifting significantly, at least somewhat compromising the effort that went into such high-quality audio?

Or perhaps instead people will be saying "is that a Pono in your pocket or are you just pleased to see me"? Maybe that's what its all about. We've had the 'riser from Pfizer'. Now for $400 plus downloads at what a vinyl album costs a pop we can be 'sprung by Young'. Or should that be 'hung by Young'? I'm sure one way or another he's been focused on stereo imaging from the moment he conceived the project!