Mixing will be the death of me!!

[BigElectricCat]

I've been really trying to work on my mixing for the last year or so.

I felt I was making good progress. Last weekend my band recorded a demo. I thought the tracks sounded great and couldn't wait to mix them. I've worked on it for 4 or 5 hours each day for a week, and I sent the work in progress off to the band today to see what they thought. They weren't impressed.

I'm too close to this now to see the wood for the trees.

I'd really appreciate it if some of you experienced guys could have a listen to the song and tell me what you think, and if possible, give me a few pointers.

I'm really getting sick of mixing....

It's saved as an mp3 and I put it through a limiter to bump up the volume at bit for comparison to commercial tracks.

http://search3.idrive.com/driveway/jsp/dway_download.jsp?id=h7v9g5g8t9

This one is without limiting

http://www.driveway.com/z5g5u8h4e3

I'd be REALLY grateful if anyone could spare the time to help.

Tony

[Zukan]

I was going to move this to Sound Files but decided to wait it out until you have given some more info on your gear and room acoustics.

What, if any, room treatment do you have and which monitors or headphones are you using for your mix tasks?

[audioartist]

your biggest problem is the kickdrum sound, sort that and you'll see a massive improvement

its kinda muffled

id try cutting severely at 500hz and adjusting the Q until you have a nice clearly defined top and bottom

then you can use a high or low shelf to adjust the balance between these, you'll probably need more top end click than bottom

psycho acoustically we tend to imagine the middle and bottom end a little when we hear that click

i find if you only get a decent bass end, using an exciter and or gate can bring back the all important click...

i know how you feel mate

i've been mixing for around 12 hours a day all week with an album release deadline coming up fast...

take lots of breaks, change your monitoring every half an hour

listen at high volume to clean up anything nasty, clicks/pops/crackles, editing etc....

listen at low volume to adjust overall levels and attitude

hope this helps

lew

[BigElectricCat]

Hi,

Thanks for not moving it.

I don't have any acoustic treatment, I'm living abroad as a contract worker and generally move apartments every year. I don't have the skills to make my own bass traps/diffusers and there isn't any affordable acoustic treatment available here in Korea (besides the mrs would kill me)

I'm a low budget home recordist. My monitors are ESI nEar05 - I bought them after reading the review in SOS. I monitor on them mainly but also check mixes using Sony MDR-7506 and AKG K66 headphones.

I also check the mix on our dvd setup and the other computer with crap d/a converters and small speakers. I listened to it at the local bar last night too.

I guess a decent pair of headphones to mix on would be a sensible purchase given my situation...

However, I feel like my mixes are consistently missing something and if someone could tell me what it is e.g x frequencies are too prominent, the low mids are muddy, the sub bass is clouding the mix, then I could take steps to resolve it in future mixes.

I understand mixing is hard to talk about as it really is a black art (to me anyway) but I'm really frustrated right now and any advice would be great.

Tony

[Jonnypopisical]

Hi - It sounds better than I thought it would given your comments! I think the other peps are right...

I'd look again at the kit sound - the kick in particular and get the bass gtr and drums working well together.

I also think you need to compress the vocal much harder for this sort of music - then fit the guitars around the drums/bass/vocal

Everything seems very dry (or roomy) which makes it all sound very one-dimensional. I'd try and introduce some longer reverbs on the vocals and try and move the guitar tones away from the vocal frequencies

Also - tell your band mambers to be realistic as to what to expect - it's not half bad as it is but they can't expect it to sound like a record without more care and attention to the actual recording (out of tune backing vocalist take note!)

[Phil O]

First thoughts (which, as Zukan says, may or may not be issues arising from your mix room acoustics),

1. The mix is very narrow. Whilst it's good to have the instruments that carry the main energy up the middle, some stuff should be panned out wide(er). The guitars for example.
2. The mix as a whole and the drums in particular lack 'punch'. Parallel compression and careful EQ would undoubtedly help the drum sound. As Audioartist has alluded to, the Kick probably needs some work. You need to decide if this or the bass is going to carry the low end. As it is, neither seem to have much in the way of lower frequencies.
3. Not a major issue but the vocals would benefit from some tuning (particularly the harmonies) and a bit of production generally (FX, ad-libs, etc).
4. I'd consider 'layering' up the guitars further. Possibly the same parts overdubbed with subtle differences. The nearest artist that springs to mind is someone like Linkin Park. I'd have a good listen to 'Minutes TO Midnight' over the same monitoring system to get a handle on where you should be headed.

Hope that helps,

http://www.myspace.com/philogg

[BigElectricCat]

Hi - It sounds better than I thought it would given your comments! I think the other peps are right...

Thanks a lot for you encouraging words. It's devastating to have someone trash a week's work with a curt sentence.

Also - tell your band mambers to be realistic as to what to expect - it's not half bad as it is but they can't expect it to sound like a record without more care and attention to the actual recording (out of tune backing vocalist take note!)

Yeah, I should have mentioned, I've got the two singers back in tomorrow to redo the vocals, I reckon they need more attitude and I'm fairly certain the backing vox are gonna need 'meoldyned' but I want to try and get it right first.

[BigElectricCat]

Thanks so much for listening audio artist, phill, and johnny.

You've given me stuff to focus on. Kick drum, wider panning, ambiance. I'm gonna re-read Mike Seior's excellent reverb article again tomorrow morning.

I guess my biggest insecurities are 'will it transfer' and 'have I got an adequate frequency range'?

I feel much better about this already, thanks.

Tony

[Tui]

I listened to a minute or so of the non-limited version on my MBP. I thought the production was sufficiently balanced, and that I could hear everything. The drums cut through pretty well. I didn't feel at all that the mix was the biggest problem with this track. I'm not sure if I'm going to offend somebody, but imo the real weaknesses are the pretty standard chord progression and song structure, and the vocals, which I didn't find convincing. I'd suggest working on those areas first, but forgetting about perfecting the mix for the time being.

[BigElectricCat]

I'm not sure if I'm going to offend somebody, but imo the real weaknesses are the pretty standard chord progression and song structure, and the vocals, which I didn't find convincing. I'd suggest working on those areas first, but forgetting about perfecting the mix for the time being.

Not at all, no offense. I disagree about the chord sequence - I like the song, I like the emphasis on rhythm.

You're dead right about the vocal performance though and we're going to re-record it tomorrow.

What's an MBP btw?

[A Non O Miss]

Yeah I agree, the chord progression is not the problem, I like it. The kick could be better for sure. Overall it ain't that bad, it could use some more panning as said previous and probably some more compression on the vocals but I wouldn't be kicking yourself as much as it appears you are.

[Tui]

What's an MBP btw?

MacBook Pro, meaning I didn't listen to it through proper monitors (I've got a cold right now and spend most of my time vegetating on the sofa). From what I could hear, I would say you have a talent for mixing and a good understanding of levels. You already told me that you like this song, so I won't argue with you. However, I've listened to many demos of rock bands over the years, and 99% suffer from the same issues: A lot of time seems to get spent on production and little frilly bits, but not enough on the core "message" or identity of the song. Oftentimes, the vocals, which are supposed to carry the song, are the weakest aspect of the recording. In my experience, when you have a great song and a great vocalist, everything else follows easily. Trying to base a recording primarily on its production value is much, much harder.

[Jadoube]

First, I'll just add my encouragement. I agree with most of the comments... Take heart... it's a good start!

I really think the guitars should be gigantic and tight! That's what this style of music generally does. I would go for super wide stereo guitar sounds and a little more space around them. Beware of really long splashy reverbs... it could get ugly fast. You will have to dig some eq holes in them for the vocals.

I think the vocal is a little thin and too dry. Try adding some chest. 200 to 800... but be careful, it could get really ugly with too much. It might work better with a higher mid cut around 1.6k to 3.14K. You'll have to work the guitars against that because they like to bite in those frequencies as well. Add some tight subtle slap echo. I would also play around with a 'punchy' compressor setting; slowish attack, fast release, low ration, fair amount of gain reduction... working that pump against the eq should help put some b*lls on the voice.

Kick drum definitely needs work. Too woofie... if it were me, I would change the sound; Use Drumagog if you have it or something similar.

More punch in the drums; Bus comp some one mentioned... good idea. Maybe a teensy tiny bit of distortion as well? I used to use an outboard guitar pedal for this... Now I use my Line 6 POD sounds.

Bass could use more grind and I would bus it in with the drums to get the rhythm section breathing.

Anyways... it's a good start man. Keep working it! Don't die... Cheers!

[MaTr1x2051]

I just listened on some small laptop speaker. If I have a chance I'll post again after listening on my monitors. Three things really stuck out: 1) The vocal was really really loud and on top of the band. Sometimes if you bury the vox track just a tad it can make the whole band sound much bigger. I'd also like to hear a little depth on the vox... maybe a short delay mixed extremely low (5% or so) and then a medium room or plate reverb also set very low. 2) I couldn't hear the kick at all on these speakers. Just means that you need more 3-4 khz in the sound. 3) The snare (and whole drumkit actually) sounds like its in the background compared to the other instruments. I'd really like to hear the snare up front and almost competing with the vox track, as well as the kick to some extent.

I know I'm only listening on a laptop, but you also need to remember how most people are going to be listening to these tracks - probably on an ipod or similiar quality device with earbuds or smaller type speakers. The mix absolutely must translate to those types of playback systems.

I'll try and take another listen today on better speakers. Just keep listening and comparing to commercial tracks, especially those the band likes listening to. If you don't know how what they listen to sounds, you'll never be able to make them happy.

[MaTr1x2051]

Ok, I'm listening on my monitors now. Everything from the last post still stands. The guitars definitly need more volume, bite, and power. Ironically, the drums sound more upfront on my monitors than they sounded on my laptop, but they don't sound clear. I think some high end 8 to 10khz boosts on the overheads could help. As well as a brightening of the snare. Parallel compression might help bring the kick and snare out the way I would like to hear them.

I noticed that when the band enters on the mix without the limiter, the meters jump way up to the top, but the sound doesn't hit me at all. Maybe try a little expansion? I'm really not sure how to fix that without having time with the tracks in front of me. Stereo separation like mentioned above might help. Or you might rethink any compression you have on the tracks now. I find that busy electric guitars rarely need compression. I only compress them if I'm going for an effect, or for extra sustain. Compression with a slower attack time on snare and kick can help them really pop. Parallel comp also really works there.

Good luck! Post any updates on the mixes if you can!

[Interweaved]

Yeah, I should have mentioned, I've got the two singers back in tomorrow to redo the vocals, I reckon they need more attitude and I'm fairly certain the backing vox are gonna need 'meoldyned' but I want to try and get it right first.

I think the vocals need more effects... I think a tad of chorus and some echo would go a long way... maybe compression to "even it out".. the dynamics seem to vary (probably moving his head or mic around). I like screwing around with the eq on my vocals. The song could use funky vocals, and the singer's voice could kind of use the "covering" of effects.

I bet the vocals are what's making the band complain.

The rest sounds pretty good... maybe a little compression boost on the cymbals and bass drum.

[Conory]

If this had been recorded in the 1960's it would be spot on.
Some of the more adventureous bands of the time sounded like this.

How come nobody spotted the backing vocals at the time? They are pretty glaring.

The song structure: 3 lots of verse and chorus in succession - has anyone thought of fitting the break section in between 2nd chorus and 3rd verse?

Anyway I look forward to hearing the finished article.

[onesecondglance]

Yeah, I should have mentioned, I've got the two singers back in tomorrow to redo the vocals, I reckon they need more attitude and I'm fairly certain the backing vox are gonna need to be 'melodyned' but I want to try and get it right first.

you are right to get the vocalist back in... you need more "bite" to the vocal performance and that's not something you can add with a plug in (trust me - i've been in this position myself as a vocalist, and whilst it can feel all right when performing, when you listen back it doesn't have the necessary edge).

turn their monitor mix up loud so it's like they're playing live and get them to go for it. if that's not working, break out the beers - not so much that tuning goes out, but enough so that you get a bit more aggression to the tone. also try double tracking for a more full tone.

good luck...

[Conory]

This song and the recording has grown on me over the last couple of days. I actually like the "thin" lead vocal. I'm not a fan of "in your face" vocals in mixes. They might sound big but they have no real soul. I find the existing vocal has an endearing fragility that enhances the mood set up by the instrumentation.

It's purely a matter of personal taste and of course no suggestion is going to be neutral.

BTW is this track by the GJay band?

Good luck

[BigElectricCat]

Thanks again everyone for your encouragement and advice.

This has been a hell of an education for me, I really appreciate it. It will hopefully benefit my mixing a lot.

However, the acid test is posting up the remix... Some of you were kind enough to say you'd listen again. So, here we go.

Here is one with no limiting

http://www.driveway.com/d6a2f7v6z3

And here is one with limiting and slight EQ

http://www.driveway.com/q4j8m2s9o8

My main concerns are - will it transfer? Is it 'broadcast' quality?

Thanks again,

Tony

P.S

Conory, yes it is a G-Jay track.

[onesecondglance]

i think it definitely sounds better than the first one, there's an immediately noticeable improvement in the balance. for me the only things i'd be looking at is making the bass drum cut through a touch more (more treble? - on the limited version in particular it was lost somewhat among the rest of the mix) and looking at the reverb on the snare - i think it needs to be drier - but these are mainly matters of taste. i'd also compress the lead vocal a bit more - again, though, this is just my preference for rock.

in terms of transferring, i've listened on the crappy built-in speakers on my laptop as well as on my "proper" system and it seems to work well on both.

it will be interesting to see what other folks think!

[BigElectricCat]

Onesecond Glance,

Thanks so much for listening on 2 systems. I have more confidence in the mix now.

I too would compress the vocal more but the lead singer will only whinge if I do. I get the impression that someone once told him compression is 'bad'. He says it sounds like there is a pillow over his mouth when I put any more compression on.

With this mixing malarkey, you really can't please all the people all the time...

Any feedback is welcome...

Tony