Piano / Guitar PA Set Up

[Bgood2423]

I've only played with other people's set up but am looking to venture out solo on my own. I play both piano/keyboard and acoustic guitar and would like to do some sets that feature both instruments (not at the same time obviously - that's talent).

I'm wondering what kind of setup would be good for vocals and then bouncing back and forth between the two? I stick to strictly classic piano sound so no electric keys or synth. I know I need a bigger sub to get a good low register sound on the piano. From some initial advice I was thinking a 15" powered on a stand along with a 12" monitor to balance out the sound (and I don't really need another 15" pointing right back at me).

I'd be playing mainly small venues - bars/breweries, nothing crowded and maybe the occasional outdoor patio. Does this sound about right? Anyone have any experience with similar setup / gear / instruments & vocal?

I was also looking at a column array like the Bose L1, and while they get really good reviews I'm a little skeptical with the piano sound and having them carry through some crowd noise. Any and all opinions and advice appreciated!

[Mike Stranks]

Welcome!

Do you sing as well? If so, what's the style?

Are you intending to use a keyboard with weighted keys and a good piano sound or the real thing?

In all probability you won't need to be so worried about the bottom octave or so of the piano, but on the way the system is able to produce two octaves up and down from Middle C. It's the way that systems can handle that range - particularly the upper registers - that differentiates the good from the excellent IMHO. Solo keyboards - of whatever type/genre - seem particularly adept at exposing system weaknesses!

So tell us a bit more and we'll be able to give more-specific advice.

[Bgood2423]

Thanks for the input! I use a keyboard with weighted keys. Mostly sing rock / blues ...Billy Joel and Elton John stuff and then some covers of my own arrangement.

I know speakers are pretty much you get what you pay for in terms of quality and while I don't plan on breaking the bank and going high end, I'm not buy cheap $200 speakers. I'm more concerned with the setup and what size.

[Bgood2423]

Sorry I forgot to note that I do sing as well. So I'd be doing either piano or guitar and vocals.

[Sam Spoons]

You mention crowd noise, my gut feeling would be that the Bose L1 would be good for a listening audience but maybe not in a crowded bar or function room. A couple of Yamaha DXR 10s or 12s would give you power in hand for around the same cost, though you would need to budget for another DXR for a monitor and a small mixer. Dickyfunk has covered all the basses during his quest for the perfect PA system and used DXR15s for a while with a full band through them.

[Mike Stranks]

As is usually the case, S Spoons Esq. and I are of one-mind!

Do you have a mic? If so, what is it? If not, any thoughts on what you might get?

And in the 'small mixer' department, the Allen & Heath ZED series is hard to better for price/performance/build-quality.

[Sam Spoons]

Yup, a big fan of the little A&H Zeds here too.

[Bgood2423]

Mic and mixer I have right now are just hand me downs I got from a friend. Behringer 5 channel and not even sure about the Mic but it's nothing great.

Would probably get a Shure for the Mic. The 48 has got pretty good reviews when compared to the 58 for about half the price.

The A&H Zed 6 channel looks like about all I would need for around $100. Not bad. I'll have to look into that.

For the speakers I've seen some good deals on Yamahas and heard good things. I doubt I would need a pair and a monitor. I was thinking more on the lines of a 12-15 mounted and then a 10-12 monitor.

[Sam Spoons]

Be wary of the DBR Yamahas, they are markedly inferior to the DXRs. Sennheiser E series mics and AKG D5 are good alternatives to the SM58 (which I definitely would not choose these days except maybe for a heavy rock singer).

I'd go for three matching speakers personally, and you almost certainly don't need the 15"s for solo piano/guitar and vocal, the bonus being that 10" and 12" speakers sound better for vocals. Having three the same means if one ever lets you down you still have a pair for FOH duties (and you can probably manage without a monitor in extremis).

[ReedySteadyGo]

You really don't want to be thinking about getting a 15 inch speaker just for the bottom octave on the piano. A 10 or 12 inch will generally give much better mid range for vocals, guitar & piano and a really good mid range is very important. Most of the piano tone from the bottom octave is actually from the harmonics which a 10 inch speaker will reproduce much better.

Get a good mic.

An A&H zed will be much better than your current mixer, and some zeds include built-in effects (eg reverb) plus Hi Z inputs for guitar which can be important.

[Wonks]

You might need to think about two mains simply for coverage in the bigger or wider venues. Whilst bass end coverage is a lot wider, the HF horn dispersal angle is typically around 90°, (± 45° from centre), and near the edges of this 'wedge' the HF content is falling off. Outside the wedge, the sound gets pretty muffled. So it depends on the venue whether one or two mains would be better. My choice for portability would be two DXR10" mains, a DXR10" monitor and a DXS12" sub. Loads of volume, a great clear sound and not too heavy or bulky.

I'd think again about the mic, as I think you'd benefit from something with a bit more clarity. and without the high-mid peak of the SM58. That's great for pushing the vocals out in a busy rock mix, but less appropriate in a more intimate setting. But when it comes to voice, it does come down to finding a mic that suits your voice, rather than just reading reviews. You do need to go and try some if possible. No point in paying £2k+ for a PA and then only spending £60 on a mic. You don't need to spend a fortune, but you do need to audition some to get an idea of what mic suits you, so try some more expensive ones to see if they think they improve your vocal sound. At least try some of the Shure Beta range mics, plus the AKG D5 (probably 'better' than the SM48 at a similar price) and C5 (a condenser) mics. The extra clarity of a stage condenser mic (compared to a dynamic) should be of benefit to a solo performer where you want to get your words across clearly, so try a few of those out as well.

It's an investment in your future as a performer. The better you sound at the gigs, the more you'll get noticed and get better gigs etc. So take abit of time trying mics out and pick the one that makes your voice sound most special to your ears. Take some friends along whose opinions you trust as well, If everyone agrees, then you've found the mic for you.

Note: it's worth investing in a second mic (something rugged like a SM58) to take to gigs with you, just in case your primary mic decides to play up, or phantom power goes on the mixer if you get a capacitor mic.

Avoid buying any popular Shure mics from eBay unless it's direct from a known music store. Far too many Chinese fakes floating around.

[Sam Spoons]

Wonks, as usual, makes several good points.

Regarding mics, I have and love 5 SE-H1 stage capacitors, very smooth and unhyped, great for most jazz or folk (and many other) vocals. Give a capacitor mic a try before you buy, the H1 is usually available for a street price of under £100.

Another benifit of 10" speakers is that they usually have a wider dispersion than bigger boxes.

[Mike Stranks]

Another voice advising against SM48s and 58s for your style of performance/singing.

I'd agree that a decent stage capacitor mic would serve you well and there are numerous options. I'm a fan of Audio-Technica stage mics and the AT2010 is what I'd be using as a starter for 10... but of course I've not heard your voice.

Worth saying again for the 'lurkers'... the SM58 will give you acceptable results in most situations, but for the same money you can do far better these days. An example of 'Industry Standard' now being meaningless for this category...

If you need a DI box then it's generally agreed here that the ones from Orchid Electronics are hard to beat for price/performance... and steer clear of the Behringer DI120 at any price!

[ReedySteadyGo]

Be wary of the DBR Yamahas, they are markedly inferior to the DXRs.

I second that. I heard some DBRs in a marquee and wasn't very impressed. The sound just seemed to have no life to it.

However I also heard a Yamaha Stagepas system (I don't know which one) in a very small bar with a singer/acoustic guitar and it sounded good (might be partly because it was a much smaller space though).

[dickiefunk]

I whole heartedly agree with the various recommendations and comments. I’ve tried a LOT of budget speakers (including the DBR’s) and for FOH I wouldn’t go for anything less than the Yamaha DXR’s. There are other options worth trying out but I haven’t heard these :- RCF HD 10a/12a and 732a, EV EKX12p, EV ETX10p, FBT Ventis 112a and Promaxx speakers.
One range I’m keen to try out is the LD Systems DDQ series. These use high quality Faitial Pro & BMS drivers and are powered by Hypex amp modules.
Regarding mics, my go to live vocal mics are Telefunken M80’s but these are pretty expensive at around £250 each. They have the clarity of a condenser but have a tight pickup pattern are far more resilient to feedback. I also really like the Audio Technica ATM710 condenser and Sennheiser E945 dynamic on male vocals. For an excellent budget option the Sennheiser E838’s are a real bargain if you can find them second hand. They originally cost around £100 and the price dropped to £44 before being discontinued. As a result I’ve picked a few of these up secondhand for around £20-£30 in as new condition and they are a good improvement over the SM58.

[Drew Stephenson]

Mic-wise, it might be worth giving something like a Shure Beta 87a a listen.
Others may disagree...

[AlecSp]

For small venues, I'd be tending towards 10s, rather than 12s - and definitely not 15s. I'm not sure how much you've considered practicality, but the light weight and compact size of 10s will give you huge benefits if you're using a regular car for transport. Yamaha DSR/DSR, RCF ART 712/710, QSC K 12/10. Look carefully at sizes/weights, in context with your transport/logistics arrangements, in case that helps you decide. Also look at the angle they sit at on the floor when used as monitors, some work better than others without needing an audio alignment device (piece of wood angling them).

And yes, getting three matching speakers (2 for front of house, one as a monitor) gives you good contingency in the unlikely event of failure.

Don't forget to budget in decent cables, speaker & mic stands, a carrying bag for the stands, covers for your speakers. And buy a small folding sack cart/trolley. All of this will make life much simpler for you if you use the kit regularly.

On mics, everyone will have their own view. I get great results from Sennheiser e935s, but that's just my view. If you can, try some out.

[Bgood2423]

Well I’ve certainly got more to think about than before I even started. Although I guess that’s the point of asking for advice.

The few people I’ve talked to about mics always recommend the Shure, so I guess I’ll have to go and test some out and see what suits me.

I’m glad I didn’t run out and get a 15” speaker if it’s really not necessary. Not that I was going to go cheap just to get the 15”, but knowing that I can spend a little more to make sure I get a top quality 12” speaker. I’m thinking I’ll stick with a 10” monitor and call it a day for now. I really don’t plan on gigging solo that much anyway and have been playing with a few other groups with their own gear. On top of that I wouldn’t be doing much more than a small intimate setting / bar room / outdoor patio. There are really not bigger venues than that in my area I’d be looking to play.

Time to do some shopping and get out to a music shop to try out some equipment. All the advice and input is greatly appreciated!

[AlecSp]

make sure I get a top quality 12” speaker.
.......
Time to do some shopping and get out to a music shop to try out some equipment.

But still, don't fixate that you "need" a 12 for FOH. As long as you look at decent brands and listen objectively, I bet you'll decide that a 10 is fine.

Just don't forget logistics!!! It's not just easier to transport, but will be less obtrusive in compact venues.

Listen with your ears, not your ruler....

[Sam Spoons]

+1

A good 10" speaker will go louder and lower than a cheap 12". If the budget is there I'd go for three Yamaha DXR10s. You'll never need anything better as a solo performer. If you do end up with a band and needing bigger you have three excellent monitors, just hire in a couple of 12"s and a sub and you can cover some pretty big venues.

[Bgood2423]

Be wary of the DBR Yamahas, they are markedly inferior to the DXRs.

I second that. I heard some DBRs in a marquee and wasn't very impressed. The sound just seemed to have no life to it.

However I also heard a Yamaha Stagepas system (I don't know which one) in a very small bar with a singer/acoustic guitar and it sounded good (might be partly because it was a much smaller space though).

Looking more into the Stagepas after your mention of it The new 600i seems pretty nice for a solo gig in smaller venues. All in one package and very portable (I have a compact car!).

Think I am going to venture to a Guitar Center or Sam Ash and see if they have one set up to take a listen to. Any other feedback on that system would be great!

[ReedySteadyGo]

I hope the OP is now on the way to being sorted.

For those in the UK/Europe who are looking at the DXR10 as an option, I noticed there are currently good discounts at DV & Thomann.