Good Choir Mics Under $150?

[PapaTom]

OK, so in this government job I've spoken about before, I sometimes need to mic vocalists - either trios, quartets, or choirs of 25 or 30 - for indoor and outdoor performances. A few years back, a really good salesman at the local Sam Ash (a large retail music chain here in NY USA) convinced me that a pair of Samson (their own brand) C02 Pencil Condenser mics would be perfect for this.

I've used them a few times now and, while they haven't been problematic in any way, I can't say that they have been very effective. It turns out they have a cardioid polar pattern, which rejects a lot of peripheral sound, which is NOT really what I want them to do. I want them to capture many voices at once, not just the individual voices standing in front of them. Many people rave about these as choir mics on Amazon and other sites, but I just don't hear it.

So if I dump the Samsons and commit to investing as much as $150 into one or two REAL choir mics, what would you recommend? (Keep in mind that a lot of my events are outdoors, so I can't always suspend from the ceiling.)

[Bob Bickerton]

It's not clear from your post if you're wanting to amplify or record the choirs and each would require a different approach.

For recording of choirs (or small ensembles) then a common approach would be to use an ORTF near co-incident array. This uses a pair of cardioid microphones with the capsules spaced 170cm apart and at an angle of 110º like so:



I'm not familiar with the Samson CO2s, but they would probably do the job, even though they have a higher than average self-noise.

An approach I like to use in a good acoustic, like a church, is spaced omni-directional microphones which provide a more diffuse sound stage, capturing more room acoustic, which often works well with choirs.

However, if we're talking amplifying a choir then the laws of Physics are sent to try us!

For choir amplification I tend to use high-quality hypercardioid microphones such as the Sennheiser MKH8050. Feedback is your enemy and so a flat response hypercardioid with careful placement, using the microphone's null points wisely, can deliver results.

I recently had to amplify a choir without amplifying the large orchestra immediately in front of it and this approach worked well. I've also used this technique for outdoor choir amplification successfully (always adding a little reverb to taste).

For amplifying a choir with the CO2s I'd use them in a spaced A/B configuration balancing placement between coverage and avoiding feedback.

There may be better mic options if you're only recording such as the Line Audio CM3 Wide Cardioids or OM1 Omnis (even though these are over budget).

I can't see anything remotely useful in hypercardioid pattern within your budget.

Perhaps clarify if this is for recording or amplification and also what it is about your current set-up (and explain what it is) that doesn't work.

Bob

[Mike Stranks]

Bob's already covered the issues around placement and pick-up patterns... if this is to amplify then with choirs it's often very tricky to get good pick-up without getting feedback into the system. If I have to do this I'd usually go for several mics (4+) covering various sections of the choir and getting the mics as close-in as possible. And don't attempt stereo - a mono mix will be simpler and should help reduce potential feedback issues.

I've had a pair of CO2s in the past. They're not bad but do have the typical cheaper Chinese SDC high-end lift leading to what to my ears was a very bright sound.

As Bob has said, your budget is the big constraining factor. I'd probably keep the CO2s and augment them with a pair of Rode M5s. (The M5s are excellent for the money; I have a pair that I use for utility duties.)

If you're wanting to use these outdoors then try and get some good fluffy wind muffs (Rycote) and make sure you have the hi-pass filters activated on the desk/board.

[Hugh Robjohns]

I've used them a few times now and, while they haven't been problematic in any way, I can't say that they have been very effective.

Have you heard the old adage: 'A bad workman blames his tools' ?

It turns out they have a cardioid polar pattern, which rejects a lot of peripheral sound, which is NOT really what I want them to do.

In general, a choir (of whatever size) will not surround or encircle the microphones, they will be arranged on one side in a block or arc, facing an audience. Consequently, microphones which reject unwanted audience/PA sound primarily from the rear are most useful, and we call those cardioid mics.

I want them to capture many voices at once, not just the individual voices standing in front of them.

There are many microphone techniques for this kind of application, but some form of stereo array is a good place to start -- even if you end up using them in mono through the PA. Which one will depend on the precise circumstances, but XY, ORTF, NOS, DIN, or Spaced AB Mic arrays could all be considered. These approaches are all designed to provide a wide and even pickup across an angle ranging from 180 degrees down to about 90 degrees.

This is called the stereo acceptance angle and is the usable pickup angle in front of the mic array which can encompass the choir. Arrays with a wide pickup (like XY cardioids which has a SRA of 180 degrees) can be placed very close to the choir while still delivering reasonable coverage, while an ORTF array has an SRA of closer to 90 degrees and would need to be placed further away. It's much like comparing wide and telephoto camera lenses where, for the same image framing, the camera needs to be in very different places!

The best mic array/placement option will depend on the number of singers in the choir, their physical layout, any restrictions on where the mics can be placed, the level of unwanted background sound, and any concerns about feedback from a PA -- the latter probably being your over-riding concern.

In general, higher levels of unwanted background noise or risk of PA howls will mean the mics need to be kept close to the sources, but as closer mics inherently see fewer singers you'll probably then need to use more mics to gather an adequate coverage and blend of voices across the choir.

So if I dump the Samsons and commit to investing as much as $150 into one or two REAL choir mics, what would you recommend?

I haven't used the Samson mics but I suspect they are entirely adequate for the job; the problem is probably just that you don't know how to use them and/or you don't have enough available to do the job properly. I'd recommend using your budget to buy more cardioid small-diaphragm mics allowing you to spread four mics out across the front of larger choir groups, either as four spaced AB mics, or as an ORTF pair in the centre and two outriggers.

Keep in mind that a lot of my events are outdoors, so I can't always suspend from the ceiling.

So you'll also need to invest in decent outdoor windshields too, then

H

[PapaTom]

Thanks, all.

And just for the information of some of you, your comments would be just a helpful without the jabs and sarcasm.

[Hugh Robjohns]

Oops -- I neglected to add a smiling face earlier -- the adage was intended as a gentle poke in the ribs in recognition of your apparent habit of being quick to blame other people or the equipment for the difficulties you face, when the real problems appear more often to be due to your own limited knowledge or experience.

Fortunately, we're always happy to help and offer plenty of both here... but while I try my best, the innate British sarcasm might still slip out occasionally!

[Bob Bickerton]

Hey Tom, don’t take Hugh’s (now-smiley-faced) barb too seriously. Being reminded about our short-comings (should they exist) is all part of the learning process and remember comments here are often intended for wider readership, not just the OP.

Actually my thoughts were that you may not have a realistic expectation of what you could achieve from trying to amplify a choir with minimal gear - it’s often a real challenge.

Anyway, just to say that I forgot to mention, as has been said by others, for outside work you’ll need excellent wind-protection. Unfortunately a decent pair of Rycote type wind socks (I like the Super-Softies) will set you back more than your budget!

Bob

[PapaTom]

I guess I sort of exaggerated by using the word "choir" to describe the small choruses of poor-singing senior citizens and screaming 3 and 4-year old classes I work with.

I certainly do not need church-quality sound, I just want the whispering seniors to be heard and the screaming kids in front of the group not to wash out everybody else.

All my mics are equipped with windscreens for outdoor events.

In any case, i think I need to find a different kind of forum, perhaps one for people like myself who have only done this stuff as a hobby for many years and only recently started trying to learn the theory behind all of it. Perhaps gearslutz "newbie" forum might be more my speed. You guys are way out of my league.

Anyway, thanks again. At least I feel a little better about my Samson CO2's.

[Drew Stephenson]

In any case, i think I need to find a different kind of forum, perhaps one for people like myself who have only done this stuff as a hobby for many years and only recently started trying to learn the theory behind all of it.

I think there's probably a lot of people here who are new to it (or just with very limited funds) but most probably just lurk in the knowledge that someone will come along with answers in due course.
Not everyone likes the sound of their own voice as much as me

[Sam Spoons]

In any case, i think I need to find a different kind of forum, perhaps one for people like myself who have only done this stuff as a hobby for many years and only recently started trying to learn the theory behind all of it. Perhaps gearslutz "newbie" forum might be more my speed. You guys are way out of my league.

Anyway, thanks again. At least I feel a little better about my Samson CO2's.

I really don't think you need to feel that you don't measure up to the 'high standards' on these forums, (and I say that as somebody who doesn't always feel I measure up). There are very few (actually, probably none ) who's knowledge is complete.

I doubt there is anybody on here who will demean those with limited knowledge and certainly none of the Moderators IME. But, as Hugh says, the UK and US sense of humour can trip us both up and text does not convey intent of meaning with any degree of accuracy so what was intended as gentle banter can easily be taken as a proper dig.

Frustration can creep in when straightforward and considered advice is refuted or ignored when gently barbed riposte can ensue but I do feel you'll find that this is a much gentler place than GS (and I speak from personal experience of GS and AGF).

[MarkPAman]

I just want the whispering seniors to be heard and the screaming kids in front of the group not to wash out everybody else.

Well that's all about getting some mics positioned where they pick up the whisperers well, but not the screamers. Not easy - if fact in some situations, impossible unless you have one, very close, mic each - and even then it can be challenging.

[Bob Bickerton]

In any case, i think I need to find a different kind of forum, perhaps one for people like myself who have only done this stuff as a hobby for many years and only recently started trying to learn the theory behind all of it.

Well, we were all in that position at some point and as Sam says we’re all still learning, I know I am!

Personally, I’ve found these forums to be hugely useful with people prepared to take time and care to help and answer questions, even though these answers are, shall we say, a little ‘up-front’ sometimes.

Having said all of that, as with any learning environment, it’s up to the student to be open to receiving both new information as well as being prepared to change attitude. The latter is the hardest to teach and the most difficult to accept. Maybe Hugh’s humorous jibe wasn’t made by accident.

You’ve been doing sound (at some level) for 40 years. It doesn’t matter whether we’re doing this for a living or for a hobby, we owe it to the listeners of our endeavours to do the best job we can and I commend you for wanting to learn more.

You may wish to stick around

Bob

[Mike Monte]

I use Shure MX202B/C mics.
They work well for my choral work.

[AlecSp]

In any case, i think I need to find a different kind of forum, perhaps one for people like myself who have only done this stuff as a hobby for many years and only recently started trying to learn the theory behind all of it. Perhaps gearslutz "newbie" forum might be more my speed. You guys are way out of my league.

No - they're pussycats here - informed and helpful, unlike the zoo of gearslutz which you've had the joy of discovering.

Stick with it here - you'll find opinions and helpfulness in droves, and very litte (if any) abuse...