Taming treble with new pots?

[gingertimmins]

hi guys, I have a classic player jazzmaster and I’m looking to get a more useable range in my tone knob. The pickups are quite hot and p90ish in design but not true p90s apparently.
Anyway, I don’t mind the pickups too much. I have them as low as they will go and the general timbre/ tone is quite nice and output wise they match quite nicely with my strat so minimal faff when switching during a gig. What I don’t like though is that I find their top end a little fizzy and my tone knob sits at about 4 for optimum tone but this gives me a very small range on the pot. The guitar is fitted with 1meg pots.
Am I right in thinking that swapping them out for 500k or even 250k would tame the top end and give me a more useable tone sweep?

I’ve asked this on various guitar forums and all I seem to get is “put some Novak’s or lollar pickups in there” which isn’t what I’m asking!
Can anyone confirm or deny why I’m saying would work?

Cheers,
Chris

[Wonks]

Yes, the lower the value the pot, the lower the cut-off frequency will be for the pickup's inherent inductance+ resistance +capacitance low-pass filter. It's worth testing out with a 1meg resistor held across the two outer tabs on the volume pot (with the volume pot up fully) as this will simulate a 500k resistance. If it's still too bright (500k to 1meg has a much smaller effect on tone than 250k to 500k), then go with a 250k pot.

Lowering the tone pot value will also knock more treble off. The pot resistance limits the amount of high frequency flowing to ground via the tone capacitor, so a 500k linear pot up fully is the same as a 1Meg linear pot at 50%.

Good Jazzmaster pickups are similar to P90s in that they have fairly flat low but wide coils, but differ in having magnetic pole pieces instead of the P90's bar magnet and adjustable steel screw pole pieces. Note that I said 'good' as some of the Jazzmaster pickups used in Japanese models and below had something more akin to a Strat pickup hiding under the big cover (tall narrow coils) and sounded very different. Might be worth looking under your covers to see what sort you have. IIRC the real ones have coils about 2cm wide and 3mm high.

I swapped the ones on a friend's Jap Jazzmaster a few years ago for standard Fender US ones and it made a huge difference in the tone, march less sharp and more rounded and mellow sounding, whilst still clear. It may be that the sound you are looking for will eventually require a change of pickups. I managed to get mine via eBay from the IS for about £25 each, with not a lot of postage.

[gingertimmins]

Thanks wonks, these pickups are the flat type, similar to traditional ones but they have an alnico bar magnet and (I think) non adjustable pole pieces. It’s a real mashup of pickup types and nobody seems to know much about them. Hence the reason everyone changes them out.

As said, I like them- the neck is really nice, it’s just with the tone more than half way up they’re too bright and brittle.
My strat is bright and the tone sits no higher than 7 but I get from 1-7 to use rather than the 1-4 on the jazzy.

[Music Wolf]

As I understand it - the higher the value / the brighter the tone, so dropping to a 500k or even 250k should tame things.

I suspect that a lot of the values are historic / convention. 250k for single coil, 500k for humbucker. I've got a couple of guitars with P90s, both have 500k pots (in the case of the Casino I'm going off what I've read online - the pots aren't exactly accessible in order to check. The Casino sounds fine. The other, a PRS with a humbucker in the bridge and a P90 in the neck, sounds a little 'dark' to me (according to the PRS marketing blurb that's intentional). So my conclusion, from this limited sample set, is that it depends upon the guitar, the pickup and, above all, what sound you are looking for.

I think that the bright, almost shrill, sound is what draws a lot of people to the Jazzmaster but, if you want a different sound, then swapping the pots is a reasonably simple (if you can solder) and low cost mod that you can try and reverse if it doesn't achieve the desired result.

I'm don't try to match my guitars outputs by altering pickup height. I like to get the pickups in the sweet spot for that particular instrument (getting it right can really bring a guitar to life). I control the gain at the amp (but I'm using a simulator so it's reasy to set this song by song).

[Music Wolf]

I see that Wonks got in ahead of me with a more comprehensive answer. That must be the time it took to take the cover off my PRS. A good job that I didn't try to get the pots out of the Casino

[gingertimmins]

As I understand it - the higher the value / the brighter the tone, so dropping to a 500k or even 250k should tame things.

I suspect that a lot of the values are historic / convention. 250k for single coil, 500k for humbucker. I've got a couple of guitars with P90s, both have 500k pots (in the case of the Casino I'm going off what I've read online - the pots aren't exactly accessible in order to check. The Casino sounds fine. The other, a PRS with a humbucker in the bridge and a P90 in the neck, sounds a little 'dark' to me (according to the PRS marketing blurb that's intentional). So my conclusion, from this limited sample set, is that it depends upon the guitar, the pickup and, above all, what sound you are looking for.

I think that the bright, almost shrill, sound is what draws a lot of people to the Jazzmaster but, if you want a different sound, then swapping the pots is a reasonably simple (if you can solder) and low cost mod that you can try and reverse if it doesn't achieve the desired result.

I'm don't try to match my guitars outputs by altering pickup height. I like to get the pickups in the sweet spot for that particular instrument (getting it right can really bring a guitar to life). I control the gain at the amp (but I'm using a simulator so it's reasy to set this song by song).

Even the die-hard jazzmaster fans find these to be a bit too shrill but I don’t have the money to throw at a new set of pickups....I’m deep into a strat build that is taking up my “allowance “ of gear spends!

I wouldn’t match output by pickup height either, it’s always dependant on the guitar but it’s an added bonus that the two are pretty evenly matched with both guitars sounding at their best. I’ve tried an eq pedal in my chain but with space on my board at a premium, I’d rather try to fix the issue at the source.
Thanks for the input though. Based on the info I’m tempted to go for 250k to start with. If that darkens the tone too much I can recycle them in the strat project that I mentioned and the boss of the house should be none the wiser!

[Hewesy]

As an aside it might be worth replacing the caps, though it does sound like the pot values are a bit high but I think that value was Leo's personal choice? (I'm no expert on JM pickups though, more used to a straight 250k/500k choice!!). So it might be a legacy type thing over a playability choice.

Some interesting articles in terms of getting more out of your tone pot's travel via cap tweaks, could be worth adding in a few orange drop or Jenson caps if you do crack the guitar open to tinker.

https://www.seymourduncan.com/tonefiend ... your-caps/

https://www.premierguitar.com/articles/ ... -part-ii-2

https://www.premierguitar.com/articles/ ... th-control

Hewesy

[gingertimmins]

As an aside it might be worth replacing the caps, though it does sound like the pot values are a bit high but I think that value was Leo's personal choice? (I'm no expert on JM pickups though, more used to a straight 250k/500k choice!!). So it might be a legacy type thing over a playability choice.

Some interesting articles in terms of getting more out of your tone pot's travel via cap tweaks, could be worth adding in a few orange drop or Jenson caps if you do crack the guitar open to tinker.

https://www.seymourduncan.com/tonefiend ... your-caps/

https://www.premierguitar.com/articles/ ... -part-ii-2

https://www.premierguitar.com/articles/ ... th-control

Hewesy

Thanks!
I think the original JMs did have 1meg pots as per Leo’s intentions but he never made a JM with overwound, hot, p90-esque pickup and I think this is the problem. The pickups and pots seem a bit mismatched.

I’ll have a read up on the caps. I have a leftover orange drop and some other random caps in my parts box.

Thanks for the links!

[Wonks]

Normally the hotter the pickup, the more inductance it has and the resonant peak moves down in frequency, making the overall sound darker, which is what the higher pot resistance value is there to try and compensate for.

TBH, changing the cap value only really makes a difference if you actually use the tone control and don't leave it turned up all the way like most people do. The most you get is about 0.5dB in the upper frequencies, which just isn't noticeable.

One other simple thing to try is using a nice long curly guitar lead to knock all those high frequencies off!

[gingertimmins]

Normally the hotter the pickup, the more inductance it has and the resonant peak moves down in frequency, making the overall sound darker, which is what the higher pot resistance value is there to try and compensate for.

TBH, changing the cap value only really makes a difference if you actually use the tone control and don't leave it turned up all the way like most people do. The most you get is about 0.5dB in the upper frequencies, which just isn't noticeable.

One other simple thing to try is using a nice long curly guitar lead to knock all those high frequencies off!

I can’t stand those leads! They always seem to knock things over and pull things all over the place!

[Martin Walker]

One other simple thing to try is using a nice long curly guitar lead to knock all those high frequencies off!

I can’t stand those leads! They always seem to knock things over and pull things all over the place!

Same with headphones, except it's your head that gets pulled all over the place when you stand on their curly leads

Martin

[Hewesy]

True Wonks, I do actually use mine (typically I sit midway and use it to tweak once the amp is dialled in, I find it helpful to have a little leeway during playing) but I gather I'm a little unique in that approach!

I wondered if it was an option noting GT was balancing a Strat/JM live rig but agree if you use wide open it's probably pointless (the links I posted do say the same thing).

Hewesy

[Hewesy]

Thanks!
I think the original JMs did have 1meg pots as per Leo’s intentions but he never made a JM with overwound, hot, p90-esque pickup and I think this is the problem. The pickups and pots seem a bit mismatched.

I’ll have a read up on the caps. I have a leftover orange drop and some other random caps in my parts box.

Thanks for the links!

Pleasure!

Quite likely, odd they'd go down this route but perhaps they followed Leo's "parts bin" approach a little too closely!

I'd drop to 250k personally noting they're singles,
But having said that 300k might be worth a look too.

Hewesy

[Wonks]

P90s normally use 500k, but they are normally a bit more pokey and mid-focussed than the Jazzmaster pickups. I do have a 2014 LP melody Maker which has a thin body and two "P90S" pickups (P Ninety S), which have fixed magnetic pole pieces like a Jazzmaster,( no bar magnets underneath) so are that bit thinner, and cleaner in sound.

[ef37a]

Out of my area a bit but, you could go in for a bit of "law distortion"?

No, won't get your collar felt! The idea is to use a resitor between pot wiper and end of the track. Which end is found by experiment.

Try a range starting at 1meg then 470k and so on. You could use another linear pot as the distorting resistor and when you find the right position, measure the value and fit the nearest fixed R.

I agree, curly leads are inventions of Old Nick. You could just slap 1,000 puff or two across the jack pins ( 1.000 "puff" =1nF)

Dave.

[John Egan]

Hi,
I remember the original Jazzmasters as being significantly more mellow in tone than the Strats of the day. It was said that Leo wanted to widen the customer base to include more players than the country players and rock and rollers who had taken to his Strats and Teles - even to jazz players, who mostly played archtops. They certainly weren't shrill, and they certainly weren't hot but I have no idea what value pots they used in the 50s and early 60s.
Regards, John

[gingertimmins]

Hi,
I remember the original Jazzmasters as being significantly more mellow in tone than the Strats of the day. It was said that Leo wanted to widen the customer base to include more players than the country players and rock and rollers who had taken to his Strats and Teles - even to jazz players, who mostly played archtops. They certainly weren't shrill, and they certainly weren't hot but I have no idea what value pots they used in the 50s and early 60s.
Regards, John

From what I’ve been able to find out the original design was with 1meg pots.
I always thought of them as ‘mellow but chimey’.
I think this may be down to the rhythm circuit having a 50k pot which in my opinion is extremely dark sounding. This and the fact that amps back then (massive generalisation....) lacked a bit of top end.
This is all of course just my own thoughts....

[Hewesy]

Another big part of the "proper" Jazzmaster tone is that they're designed for the use of heavy, flatwound strings.

Leo was a jazz guy (like Jim Marshall) so he wanted to design the best, bespoke designed jazz guitar. Which is what he did after the Tele, Strat and P bass established his brand.

So to get the proper tone you needed 13/14 guage flats, at which point probably the 1meg/50k pots make sense - as does the bridge as the strings don't pop off as easily...

Still dont want a curly lead though.

Hewesy

[John Egan]

From what I’ve been able to find out the original design was with 1meg pots.
I always thought of them as ‘mellow but chimey’.
I think this may be down to the rhythm circuit having a 50k pot which in my opinion is extremely dark sounding. This and the fact that amps back then (massive generalisation....) lacked a bit of top end.
This is all of course just my own thoughts....

Hi Gingertimmins,
I remember playing a late 50s jazzmaster through a Selmer T&B 50 (which had loads of treble) in 1965 in Selmer's shop in Charing Cross Road. It was significantly less bright than the 50s and 60s Strats they had. The pickups sounded a bit like a clean P90, but not so powerful and not unlike my Gretsch DA with HiloTrons, which was my gigging guitar then (also through a T&B).
I agree that the small Fender tweed amps were less bright and had less clean headroom, but my comparison is with the contemporary Strats.
Regards, John

[John Egan]

Hi GingerTimmins,
I played a Classic Player Jazzmaster today. The pickups are, as you say P90-ish. They are brighter and more powerful than I remember Jazzmasters. I found the tone control at about 7 took the edge off somewhat. If it is possible to lower the pickups, I think this would make the guitar sound more like a vintage Jazzmaster.
However, it is a good sounding guitar and the bridge is a distinct improvement over the originals. I found it impossible to keep the strings on the bridge when playing the old ones (I do hit pretty hard!).
I suspect with the pickups lowered it would give a passable imitation, though I must admit to not being very familiar with the sound of Jazzmasters on old recordings.
Regards, John

[gingertimmins]

Hi GingerTimmins,
I played a Classic Player Jazzmaster today. The pickups are, as you say P90-ish. They are brighter and more powerful than I remember Jazzmasters. I found the tone control at about 7 took the edge off somewhat. If it is possible to lower the pickups, I think this would make the guitar sound more like a vintage Jazzmaster.
However, it is a good sounding guitar and the bridge is a distinct improvement over the originals. I found it impossible to keep the strings on the bridge when playing the old ones (I do hit pretty hard!).
I suspect with the pickups lowered it would give a passable imitation, though I must admit to not being very familiar with the sound of Jazzmasters on old recordings.
Regards, John

Hi John, thanks for coming back!
I already have the pickups as low as I can get them and that’s where they sound good. I still need to lose that treble though!

I actually didn’t like the bridge at all as it would never stay in tune with trem use. I’ve found a cheap roller bridge which has brought the guitar to life even though the radius is off (12” bridge, 9.5” neck) but it feels great.
Other than the bridge and the harsh pickups it’s a cracking guitar!

[Hewesy]

The Classic Player has more P90 esque pickups than the more vintage spec models so maybe that's it - the website does say it has hotter wound custom pickups specially designed for the CP.

It also has 10's fitted as standard too, spec doesn't list the pot values but I suspect someone has cracked it open and posted them up.

I recall Seymour Duncan were doing two JP replacement pickups, one hot but one vintage spec. Not going to suggest you swap but it is an option...

Hewesy

[John Egan]

Hi GingerTimmins,
I played a Classic Player Jazzmaster today. The pickups are, as you say P90-ish. They are brighter and more powerful than I remember Jazzmasters. I found the tone control at about 7 took the edge off somewhat. If it is possible to lower the pickups, I think this would make the guitar sound more like a vintage Jazzmaster.
However, it is a good sounding guitar and the bridge is a distinct improvement over the originals. I found it impossible to keep the strings on the bridge when playing the old ones (I do hit pretty hard!).
I suspect with the pickups lowered it would give a passable imitation, though I must admit to not being very familiar with the sound of Jazzmasters on old recordings.
Regards, John

Hi John, thanks for coming back!
I already have the pickups as low as I can get them and that’s where they sound good. I still need to lose that treble though!

I actually didn’t like the bridge at all as it would never stay in tune with trem use. I’ve found a cheap roller bridge which has brought the guitar to life even though the radius is off (12” bridge, 9.5” neck) but it feels great.
Other than the bridge and the harsh pickups it’s a cracking guitar!

Hi again,
As others have said, you can certainly reduce the treble by changing the pots from 1meg to either 500k or 250k. This will inevitably reduce the volume as well, but judging by what I experienced, the guitar could stand it. The shop I was in also had an American Vintage JM and that was a much quieter guitar, but they wouldn't let me dismantle it to check the pot values ! However, I reckon the difference was probably in the pickups, not the pots.
I'm glad you like it !
Regards, John

[Hewesy]

Just stumbled on this article, as well as confirming that the CP has 1meg pots so it's obviously the go to for Fender.

http://www.lollarguitars.com/blog/2018/ ... ster-tone/

"Then we started thinking about other variables. Fender Jazzmasters, as well as ‘70s Teles -like the Deluxe and Thinline- all use 1 meg pots, which give the guitar a lot of presence. Having played around with pot values, we knew that using a 500K pot sounds like using a 1 meg volume pot rolled down to about “7” or “8”. The 1 meg adds brilliance in the last little bit from “7” to “10.” ".

Hewesy

[gingertimmins]

Just stumbled on this article, as well as confirming that the CP has 1meg pots so it's obviously the go to for Fender.

http://www.lollarguitars.com/blog/2018/ ... ster-tone/

"Then we started thinking about other variables. Fender Jazzmasters, as well as ‘70s Teles -like the Deluxe and Thinline- all use 1 meg pots, which give the guitar a lot of presence. Having played around with pot values, we knew that using a 500K pot sounds like using a 1 meg volume pot rolled down to about “7” or “8”. The 1 meg adds brilliance in the last little bit from “7” to “10.” ".

That’s exactly what I want! So it seems I want to lose the ‘brilliance’ from my pickups.
It seems that 500k will be exactly what I need. I predict that with 500k pots my ideal sound will be tone rolled down to 7ish which gives me from 1-7 to play with. Sweet!

Hewesy