Acoustic guitars constantly going out of tune

[anna-marie music]

Hey everyone, I have two Taylor acoustic guitars (a GS Mini, and another model I'm not sure of at the moment), and they both have this problem where they're constantly going out of tune. Especially if I'm recording a really intense strumming pattern/chord progression... I'll record part of it, and then have to re-tune them! It gets pretty annoying after a while as you can probably imagine.

I got the GS Mini in December 2018 (as a Christmas gift), and the other guitar a few months ago. Neither guitars have had a setup before. If they're constantly going out of tune, should I get them set up at my local music store? Or simply just replace the strings?

[Sam Spoons]

The most likely reason is due to the method you use to fit the strings. This video will help if that's the problem (forgive me if that is not the case).*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyo2kT2UGFM

* He refers to the strings 'stretching' and the need to pre-stretch them, what he's actually doing is snugging the turns around the tuning post together and pulling an slack out of them, and pulling the ball end into a stable position under the bridge.

[zenguitar]

The most likely reason is due to the method you use to fit the strings.

+1

Andy

[anna-marie music]

The most likely reason is due to the method you use to fit the strings. This video will help if that's the problem (forgive me if that is not the case).*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyo2kT2UGFM

* He refers to the strings 'stretching' and the need to pre-stretch them, what he's actually doing is snugging the turns around the tuning post together and pulling an slack out of them, and pulling the ball end into a stable position under the bridge.

I've never had to restring them (yet ), but this is good to know for when the time comes! Considering the fact that neither of them have had a setup, I may just have to take them into my local music store and get that done!

[CS70]

The Taylor GS mini is a great little guitar - actually one of the few Taylors I like - and its tuners should be quite ok. If the strings are properly put on, it could be an issue with your technique, especially if it happens on different guitars.

Many people simply push the strings too much, or even bend them when fingering chords, resulting in them sounding out of tune even when the guitar is in tune. It's far more common with electric guitars due to their less thick strings, of course, but I've seen it with acoustics with say .10 strings.

The trick is to push the minimum you need to fret a position - basically if you're making any effort, you're doing it wrong.

If you're using a capo, it's pretty normal to have to readjust the tuning a little bit, as the guitar by design is in tune only at the zero and 12th fret, and it's in equal temperament in other positions, meaning is slightly off.

Temperature and humidity variations can also have an effect on tuning, for example if you bring the guitar out from indoors, or suddenly a hall gets filled with people (typical of small gigs).

If you have changed string gauge, you need a setup, and temperature variations can also have an effect, but in general on an acoustic guitar bad setup is more about buzzing and minor intonation problems, than strings going out of tune after a while..

[shufflebeat]

If the ball end is well settled then the usual culprit in my experience is the way the other end is wrapped round the capstan of the machine head. If it's untidy then it will settle over time, if it starts off relatively neat (not overlapping back and forth too much) then it's more stable sooner.

I used to wrap the string round the capstan, then like it through the hole and if I'm in a hurry I still do it this way but better for me is to put the string through the hole, measure to the length approx the next machine head, pull back til that point is at the hole (there is now some slack in the string) and wind with a string winder tool while holding the string in place at the nut.

The settling process can be speeded (sped/spud) up with some gentle pulling away from the guitar from the mid point of the string like a bow and arrow but *gently*. Not appropriate for nylon strings.

I tend to be ready to go after this stage.

[Drew Stephenson]

The other thing that might be happening is the strings binding in the nut. Rubbing a pencil in the grooves of the nut can help there.
But a set-up might still be worthwhile.

[Albatross]

You know, AM there are some pretty handy people on this forum who might be able to help out if you were to give a hint as to your general geographical location ... not your address obviously but the county/country even.

[Martin Walker]

You know, AM there are some pretty handy people on this forum who might be able to help out if you were to give a hint as to your general geographical location ... not your address obviously but the county/country even.

Anna-Marie gave us a link to her Bandcamp page in her very first post:

https://anna-marie.bandcamp.com/

...and on there she says she's from regina, Saskatchewan

Martin

[Hugh Robjohns]

I'm no guitarist, but I have had the pleasure of watching PW setup quite a few guitars during our Studio SOS visits and my engineering head has always found the process fascinating -- as well as entirely logical and (generally) quite simple.

In my (limited) experience, the most common causes of poor tuning stability are -- as those far more knowledgeable than me on the subject have already said -- either poor installation and winding of strings around the tuners, the strings getting stuck in the nut because the slots aren't lubricated or aren't the right size for the strings, or (in the case of some electric guitars) issues with the installation and/or alignment of the trem system.

So I'd say a proper set-up from a skilled guitar tech would be a wise investment.

H

[Albatross]

You know, AM there are some pretty handy people on this forum who might be able to help out if you were to give a hint as to your general geographical location ... not your address obviously but the county/country even.

Anna-Marie gave us a link to her Bandcamp page in her very first post:

https://anna-marie.bandcamp.com/

...and on there she says she's from regina, Saskatchewan

Martin

Ah, I hadn't looked that closely, sorry. That rules out the Brits then. Looks like a lovely part of the world though.

[Drew Stephenson]

Just as a general fettling point, I came across a lovely acronym for setting up guitars a while back: TRAIN.
Tune.
Relief.
Action.
Intonation.
Noodle.

Then repeat.

[merlyn]

I got the GS Mini in December 2018

That's quite a long time to have a set of strings. It depends on how much you play -- I'm lucky if I get three months, and they really need changed then.

If the strings are sticking in the nut the tuning jumps out, accompanied by a 'ping'. I think what you're describing is a gradual drift out of tune and I have found that this is improved by stretching the strings as @shufflebeat said. If you've had the same strings since the guitars came from the factory the strings may never have been stretched.

A student of mine bought a new guitar and I spent half an hour stretching the strings for her. Using a tuner tune a string up, then stretch it by pulling it out from the body, then check the tuning, retune, then repeat until they're reasonably stable. It takes overnight I find for strings to really settle. This is why it is inadvisable to change strings immediately before a gig.

The settling process can be speeded (sped/spud) up with some gentle pulling away from the guitar from the mid point of the string like a bow and arrow but *gently*. Not appropriate for nylon strings

I've got a nylon string guitar and I stretch the strings on it. Nylon is ten times worse than steel. I need to change strings on my nylon string the night before the night before. What is the problem that you think will happen with stretching nylon strings?

[Sam Spoons]

I 'stretch' new string fairly robustly (but only broken a couple of top E's doing so in 55 years). But I do it by holding the string with a couple of fingers underneath around the sound hole and my thumb pressing down over the upper frets, that way I'm not pulling the neck forward. I doubt there would be much risk in doing so but it's just how I fell into doing the job. My guitars are usually stable immediately after I've restrung them (I don't have any nylon strung guitars though, nylon strings actually do stretch, as in get longer over time/use, steel strings don't stretch*, they do elongate under tension but return when tension is removed).

* Not quite true but it's negligible for our purposes.

[shufflebeat]

What is the problem that you think will happen with stretching nylon strings?

I was advised many years ago that nylon strings have a tendency to stretch disproportionately at weak points which would affect the mass at those points and distort the intonation along the neck.

[Albatross]

I've never ever stretched-in a set of new strings in probably 50 years of playing in all types of situations. They settle down enough to stay stable after about half an hour or so of good solid playing and re-tuning ... its what i've found anyway.

[Dynamic Mike]

What is the problem that you think will happen with stretching nylon strings?

I was advised many years ago that nylon strings have a tendency to stretch disproportionately at weak points which would affect the mass at those points and distort the intonation along the neck.

Is that a fact, or just your gut instinct?

[shufflebeat]

I've never ever stretched-in a set of new strings in probably 50 years of playing in all types of situations. They settle down enough to stay stable after about half an hour or so of good solid playing and re-tuning ... its what i've found anyway.

That'll work.

What is the problem that you think will happen with stretching nylon strings?

I was advised many years ago that nylon strings have a tendency to stretch disproportionately at weak points which would affect the mass at those points and distort the intonation along the neck.

Is that a fact, or just your gut instinct?

Yay, once more with feline!

[SecretSam]

What is the problem that you think will happen with stretching nylon strings?

I was advised many years ago that nylon strings have a tendency to stretch disproportionately at weak points which would affect the mass at those points and distort the intonation along the neck.

Is that a fact, or just your gut instinct?

Very good. Do you do weddings and bah mitzvahs as well ?

[Honch]

Yes they do.
Acoustic guitars go out of tune.

Especially such as GS Mini since while they have the same gauge strings and the same original tuning they are way too short in total scale to be of any significant to KEEP in tune or intonation, onced tuned up. It's a MINI guitar with small fretboard not as long as fullgrown models. If you bang/whack with a pick or else they initiallly go up in pitch to finally settle down in right pitch and then even go too flat in pitch.

Also, all acoustic guitars, are prone to slight temperature differences in air, and moisture damp, and can shrink, expand for apparently no reason. And such things are more evident on a "too-small-scale-for-its-pitch" guitars such as Taylors GS MINI. Those guitars are meant to be strummed lightly. Ok, enough of this, since you haven't restrung it yet, it's strung by the factory. Here's a list:

1. Do not whack/strum hard with your picking hand.
2. Do not fret and press harder than necessary with your fretting hand.
3. Do not INADVERTENTLY bend the strings inside a chord, while fretting ANY chord with your fretting hand. Many does this in spite of being professionals. Sit in front of a mirror and watch if you inadvertently press the strings to the side, just because you think you get a better grip. This may be "normal" to you but...

4. If you're grown up, and raised on full scale acoustic guitar with thicker gauge strings, your fingers are accustomed to that, and then when ...
5. ... faced with a lesser guitar with less string tension and thinner gauge strings (both can have adverse/exacerbate effects) you tend to do by feel and do not hear or see that the same fingering pressure does not work here.
6. GS MINI is a steel string guitar as far as I know. If not it is gut string nylon...
7. And as such they never plays in tune at all, and that is my experience, which is the main reason I left those behind a long time ago. They're never in tune...maybe in open strings position, but doesn't intonate even decently higher up the fretboard.

But I have yet to see any Taylor GS MINI with nylon string. Due to that it is impossible to use anything but ball end steel strings on those. Although nylon strings with ball ends does exists. But even that would render Taylor GS MINI totally impossible to get anywhere near in tune anyways...

Period

[CS70]

But I have yet to see any Taylor GS MINI with nylon string. Due to that it is impossible to use anything but ball end steel strings on those. Although nylon strings with ball ends does exists. But even that would render Taylor GS MINI totally impossible to get anywhere near in tune anyways...

Period

Gotta say, I have plenty of acoustic guitars and they are just fine to play and keep in tune.
Also tried a GS Mini (for a good half an hour in a shop) and didn't have the impression it went out of tune in the time period But what do I know.

[Sam Spoons]

Honch, I agree with what you are saying about over-fretting and hard strumming affecting pitch, especially with lower tension strings and/or shorter scale lengths. I also agree that intonation on all guitars is a compromise. But, I disagree that steel strung* acoustic guitars always go out of tune (not even when subjected to hard percussive strumming and not even shorter scale length ones, I have/do both with no tuning issues). Like CS, the GS minis I have played have been fine WRT tuning stability.

Most tuning stability issues come down to poor restringing practices and this has been discussed up-thread with appropriate advice given to the OP.

* Nylon strung guitars are inherently less stable than steel strung but classical players seem to cope well enough with keeping them in tune for the duration of a piece.

[Honch]

...But, I disagree that steel strung* acoustic guitars always go out of tune (not even when subjected to hard percussive strumming and not even shorter scale length ones, I have/do both with no tuning issues). Like CS, the GS minis I have played have been fine WRT tuning stability.

Most tuning stability issues come down to poor restringing practices and this has been discussed up-thread with appropriate advice given to the OP.

Yes, the restringing practices has been dealt with so I provided additional. Now, if you're in a different room, place, stage or outdoor stage (very rare these days, but it will come back again) they DO get more out of tune than solid body electric guitar equivalents due to atmosphere, temperature, and damp effects. Especially moisture can wreak big havoc on tuning NO MATTER how good the guitar is strung up, stretched and maintained. The wood, expands, contracts, and shrinks, although the temperature is equal warmth like indoors, so the actual steel string doesn't shrink or expand due to temperature changes.

There are only one type of acoustic steel string guitars that are impervious to moisture, and those are those expensive graphite, molded gutiars like Rainsong, Composite Acoustics and the like. Since it wasn't that I was sure about my thing that acoustic guitars goes more out of tune than solid body electric guitars. No matter the quality of guitars.

I remember a tv flick or video of the old days where Bob Dylan kept getting his pristine Martin guitar going out of tune during the song, while his backing band with electric instruments didn't. Same with old prog band Jethro Tull where Ian Anderson tries to tune his acoustic guitar all of the time, curses, and swears, but the rest of the band, bassist, and electric guitarist Martin Barre has no problems.

[Honch]

And another anecdote, about how hard one is playing strumming the guitar. Believe it or not it is the same with acoustic Grand Pianos too. It's just a perception of the player or the producer, but legendary sound engineer that passed November last year, Jan-Erik Kongshaug were often required to call in his piano tuner TWICE the same day, to tune his Steinway Grand in the studio again.

He said to the artists/pianists that "you should've recorded the ballads first, and not start with the high intensity stuff, you whack the piano out of tune". Of course not any pianist could hear this but he sure did. And when his piano tuner arrived he wen't "yeah...hmm..well it sure has drifted from what it was earlier today when I left". So he had to do a touch up before they could continue recording the piano. Mind you, from PLAYING only.

[Sam Spoons]

Well, piano's excepted, tuning the instrument at the beginning of the set is the norm so that takes care of moisture* and, to some extent, temperature changes (which can simply shift the whole instrument up or down a few cents), once you've done that it should stay in tune for a few tunes at least. If it doesn't it's a setup or stringing issue.

My Emerald X7 is carbon fibre and is super stable, to the extent that when it arrived after 48 hours in the tender care of 'Parclefarce' it was in tune, slightly flat 'cos I guess my studio was warmer than the retailers showroom but in tune with itself. Pretty impressive and I would not have described it as expensive or high end when I bought it for £850, since then, 4 years ago, prices have risen sharply partly due to Brexit and the falling pound, they now cost around £1700 which is getting up there.

Either way, I play pretty hard with super stiff 3.5mm 'Gypsy Jazz' picks but rarely if ever experience tuning issues with any of my guitars, electric or acoustic. If I do I can pretty much always trace it back to a setup issue.

* IME changes in humidity will not affect a tone wood acoustic over a timescale of less than a few hours (hotel air-con to tropical rainforest excepted).