Surround monitoring considerations

[Jez Corbett]

It's time for me to upgrade my studio to surround, and thinking about what to get.

Currently have a pair of passive PMC TB2s, but they don't make them any more, and the idea of having to buy an av receiver (yuck) to power them fills me with dread, but they've served me well for 14 years so they can retire as hifi speakers now.

I don't think i can stretch my budget past €10k, preferably under €8k so we're not talking hugely high end here, which appears to rule out the current PMC line up unfortunately. Being based in Finland I'm erring towards Genelec and Amphion. Note i cannot really stand the 80x0 series and their dreadful sub, so would be looking at the 83xx series, and have no experience of Amphion at all.

Anything else i should consider?

Should also mention this is in a pretty modest but reasonably treated 3m x 4m room, although i should hopefully be moving to a 5m x 6m room next year some point.

[Hugh Robjohns]

Neumann KH120s (or KH80s) and one of the matching subs (KH810 or KH750)? That's what I'd do...

https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/neumann-kh120a-kh810

[Jez Corbett]

Neumann KH120s (or KH80s) and one of the matching subs (KH810 or KH750)? That's what I'd do...

https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/neumann-kh120a-kh810

Giving this a bump as I work towards getting myself set up.

The Neumann's look good, only issue is the sub - the 810 is much too large for my current space - current studio is only 3m x 4m, although will be moving to new space that's 5m x 6m at some point, hopefully next year, and the 750 is apparently a horrible mess requiring a seriously buggy iPad app to be able to use at all, which I'm sure will suddenly become unsupported in the next few years.

Suggestions for an alternative set up, or different sub?

[Drew Stephenson]

That seems to be quite a negative take on the 750? Mike Senior was not overwhelmed by the app but liked the sub: https://www.soundonsound.com/forum/view ... 27&t=70046
And the thing about the app is that once your studio is set up that's it, no more need for it.

[Jez Corbett]

That seems to be quite a negative take on the 750? Mike Senior was not overwhelmed by the app but liked the sub: https://www.soundonsound.com/forum/view ... 27&t=70046
And the thing about the app is that once your studio is set up that's it, no more need for it.

I found a thread on Gearslutz with a lot of people very unhappy with it, and promised features just haven't happened with it - it seems development completely stalled about a year ago. I don't want to invest in a set up with the plan of it lasting me the next 10 years potentially and find it just wont work any more after a few years due to an unsupported app that shouldn't be necessary at all.

[Aled Hughes]

I think the app is only needed if you want to use the DSP features?

Having used a few Neumann monitors, and going by what I’ve read from trusted reviewers, I’m sure the KH750 sounds exceptional.

[zenguitar]

Of course it's OK for people to complain about features that have been promised but not yet delivered. And there could be many reasons why the App development has stopped over the last 12 months, we are living in strange times after all.

But it is worth considering whether the KH750 will meet your needs with the App as it stands. If you can set up your surround system with the App as it stands, you should have nothing to worry about.

Andy

[Luke W]

I found a thread on Gearslutz with a lot of people very unhappy with it

That can be true of lots of products

In seriousness though I do see your point, but depending on what you need to do it may not have a big enough impact to write off the product entirely.

[Hugh Robjohns]

The app was horrendously late in arriving for the KH80s, and seems, to me at least, to be a bit of a pig's ear. I don't know whether Neumann bit off more than they could actually deliver, or whether they didn't spec it well enough to a third party developer, or what the problem is... But to have an app that only works on an iPad and still doesn't do all it was promised after so long is embarrassing to say the least!

Having said that... if you do have an iPad, and the core functions are adequate for your needs, I think it does what it should well enough.

But if you're put off the obvious alternative for sat/sub systems with great integration is the Genelec marque. Lots of neat solutions there...

[Jez Corbett]

The app was horrendously late in arriving for the KH80s, and seems, to me at least, to be a bit of a pig's ear. I don't know whether Neumann bit off more than they could actually deliver, or whether they didn't spec it well enough to a third party developer, or what the problem is... But to have an app that only works on an iPad and still doesn't do all it was promised after so long is embarrassing to say the least!

I do have an iPad, but yeah I'd be worried more it will just suddenly stop working one day. I understand the idea it's a set up once and leave it type of thing, but working in games I may need to change my surround configurations to match different standards, potentially multiple times a day. I just can't risk it.

Funnily enough, I've never got on with Genelec subs, they always felt like a separate 'thing' to me, never really part of a whole like other subs I've used. Any other recommendations?

[Hugh Robjohns]

Erm... PMC or ATC?

Obviously, all the big well-known brands now offer subs with varying levels of sophistication and integration. But I can't really recommend anything outsid the ones I've mentioned as I don't have that much experience of them all. The Neumanns, PMCs, ATCs and Genelecs I do know quite well and can be reasonably confident of them.

[baward]

After Hugh's recommendation at the time, I went for Neumann KH-80s, and if I did, I would have two more at the back and one in the centre (no sub for me). Really great little speakers, I am very happy with them.

MInd you, I am a hobbyist really, and don't make a living from music/audio.

[Drew Stephenson]

Worth looking at Dynaudio as well perhaps?

[Jez Corbett]

Hello, I'm looking at this again as I'll be starting the project that required the upgrade in a few weeks and should really get on with it!

Current situation is, the Neumann setup still looks good, however I have reservations about the sub options ... howeverrr... they might not actually be an issue. But lets ask some questions:

1. I realise the 750 is designed for being an accompaniment to a stereo setup, not a surround one. But I guess, looking at the back, I can just route my sub channel to Input B and it will just work as a standalone sub? Seems I can't use it to do bass management of a 5.1 system regardless of my issues with the app?

2. Maybe the 810 isn't too big, but anything else I should consider? No to Genelec please, I have never got on with the sound of their midpriced subs.

3. The 120 x 750 combo plus all the bits I need is looking like about €4500. Might I see a dramatic improvement if I were to, say, double that budget?

[DanDan]

5 x KH310 plus any old sub for the LFE

[Drew Stephenson]

Might be tempted by 2x310, 3x80 and one 750 personally. Assuming that you'll be using the same set up for stereo mixing? I can't remember what your plan is. If not then 5x80 +750 would probably cover it.

[The Red Bladder]

Hello, I'm looking at this again as I'll be starting the project that required the upgrade in a few weeks and should really get on with it!

Current situation is, the Neumann setup still looks good, however I have reservations about the sub options ... howeverrr... they might not actually be an issue. But lets ask some questions:

1. I realise the 750 is designed for being an accompaniment to a stereo setup, not a surround one. But I guess, looking at the back, I can just route my sub channel to Input B and it will just work as a standalone sub? Seems I can't use it to do bass management of a 5.1 system regardless of my issues with the app?

2. Maybe the 810 isn't too big, but anything else I should consider? No to Genelec please, I have never got on with the sound of their midpriced subs.

3. The 120 x 750 combo plus all the bits I need is looking like about €4500. Might I see a dramatic improvement if I were to, say, double that budget?

OK, back to basics -

About a year ago, we made the jump to becoming a film company and for that I had to convert our mastering room into a film viewing and editing room with 5.1 and 7.1 sound and pre-wire for 3D sound (Atmos, DTS-X, etc.)

Half your sound is the room. Bad room = bad sound. Even with the best speakers money can buy! And the biggest problem is always the bass. That means you are going to have to strip the room of everything and measure every inch of the place. That means it's sig-gen and sound-meter time.

Remember that imaging and other considerations are harder and more critical for surround.

Step 1. Find that spot in the room where the sub produces the most bass and is at its' loudest in the listening position. There will still plenty of null-spots in the room, but those will go away with proper treatment.

Step 2. Find where the bass is too loud - usually in the top- and side-corners of the room. That is where you need bass-traps and I suggest that you limp-wall structure and not those foam things. You will probably have to do all the corners and wall-ceiling corners.

Don't discount Genelec just yet. They didn't achieve their market dominance by being bad! They are rather neutral though and not to everyone's taste. That said, they have always been a safe bet!

I happen to have M&Ks and Genelecs, but were I equipping from scratch today, I would probably opt for a set of Neumanns as I trust the Sennheiser company (and the family!) to come up with the better product as a result of better research.

So which one? The choice is (IMO) obvious - the 810 or the 870, as these have a full 7.1 speaker management system built-in. Trying to bodge a 7.1 controller is a task filled with gotchas! And price-wise, the 810 is a bit of a steal as some 7.1 speaker management systems are as expensive as the 810.

So, to your questions -

1. Please don't try to bodge a speaker management system. If you go for the 750, you will have to add a 7.1 controller. (We use a 24:12 mixing desk in the listening room, which sounds OTT but is so that we can add 3D audio later - and we have a 7.1 M&K controller in the CR.)

2. The 870, but that's only a few dBs louder. The 810 is plenty loud enough and a perfect match for the KH120 NF monitors.

3. Go with the 810 and all will be sweetness and light! (IMO!)

[Hugh Robjohns]

1. I realise the 750 is designed for being an accompaniment to a stereo setup, not a surround one. But I guess, looking at the back, I can just route my sub channel to Input B and it will just work as a standalone sub?

Yes... that would work for the LFE channel, but if your main 5 channel speakers aren't full range -- like the KH120s -- you'll need some form of bass management to route the low-end from those channels into the sub too.

There are plenty of options for external bass management, though, depending on your system and requirements. Having it built into the sub as a central monitoring hub makes a lot of practical sense, but there are other practical solutions too.

For example, the larger Yamaha digital consoles can do it as part of their built-in surround monitor control facilities, and there are several stand-alone surround monitor controllers that also have bass management options.

[Jez Corbett]

@theredbladder

Hi yes, the room is already semi treated with a big bunch o' GIK traps, however my current studio is a very temporary space and should be moving to a new dedicated place this year (hopefully - covid has stalled an awful lot of the project manager's progress), so treatment is a secondary concern right now.

[Jez Corbett]

1. I realise the 750 is designed for being an accompaniment to a stereo setup, not a surround one. But I guess, looking at the back, I can just route my sub channel to Input B and it will just work as a standalone sub?

Yes... that would work for the LFE channel, but if your main 5 channel speakers aren't full range -- like the KH120s -- you'll need some form of bass management to route the low-end from those channels into the sub too.

There are plenty of options for external bass management, though, depending on your system and requirements. Having it built into the sub as a central monitoring hub makes a lot of practical sense, but there are other practical solutions too.

For example, the larger Yamaha digital consoles can do it as part of their built-in surround monitor control facilities, and there are several stand-alone surround monitor controllers that also have bass management options.

Hmm, I had originally been thinking about managing my bass 'in the box', but some more flexible and less fiddly solution is something I should really be thinking about, especially if, as you say, I should really be using the sub to compliment even when not specifically monitoring in 5.1

My work is sound design, mostly for games but occasionally ads and animation stuff, and I do it all in the PC. I am often working with video game console hardware, but I tend to route all the audio from that through the PC (REALLY wish someone would make a pro audio soundcard that takes Dolby / DTS in over optical grrrr) and direct monitor it right out again, so essentially everything would be coming out of the 6 outs of my Fireface.

Certainly some kind of desktop box would be preferable for managing bass crossover point, speaker configuration etc rather than fiddling behind the back of a sub every time I want to monitor to a specific standard, test whats just the sub and whats the sub complimenting the mains etc, so if you have something to recommend there, that would be great!

(It would also be good if it has easy to recall volume position too, I have my room aligned to a specific listening volume)

[Luke W]

Certainly some kind of desktop box would be preferable for managing bass crossover point, speaker configuration etc rather than fiddling behind the back of a sub every time I want to monitor to a specific standard, test whats just the sub and whats the sub complimenting the mains etc, so if you have something to recommend there, that would be great!

(It would also be good if it has easy to recall volume position too, I have my room aligned to a specific listening volume)

Crookwood do a bass management option for their controller systems. They also have some useful options built in for calibrated listening levels, so it may well be worth looking into them.

I've got a C3 and I haven't got a bad word to say about it. They were an absolute joy to deal with as a company as well, really helpful from start to finish. I've even had one or two emails since just to follow up on the sale and check that everything is working as I wanted!

[Hugh Robjohns]

Another happy Crookwood user here and that would have been my suggestion too....

[Jez Corbett]

Looks like I might need to extend the budget after all, but not to better speakers

[Jez Corbett]

my current studio is a very temporary space and should be moving to a new dedicated place this year (hopefully - covid has stalled an awful lot of the project manager's progress)

Well that perhaps unsurprisingly took a lot longer than expected. But in better news I am moving to a new studio in a couple of weeks!

Also, it's looking almost certain that I will be going for a bigger system than 5.1. Not sure the Genelec 9.2.4 system I demo'd is really justifiable (and I still don't like the harsh sound of Genelecs, even the fancy new ones, and their subs still suck).

BUT, before I place that long awaited order for the Neumanns, are there any other speakers I should consider? Can pay a bit more if it's worth it.

I'm also a bit concerned about the ergonomics of a center speaker that presumably can't be used on its side (I use a very large and wide screen), and wondering what I might lose by using the smaller KH80s as sattelites.