Please help with project guitar electronics upgrade to achieve ES-175 / Metheny jazz tone.

[DC-Choppah]

I love the tone of a real ES-175. Especially the newest ones that Gibson made. They are quite expensive. The sound is lovely. Some day I will get one!

But for now, I decided that most of the tone I like seems to come from the electronics I think.

The sounds is when you play the neck pickup and roll the tone back but not quite all the way to zero - maybe at about 1.5. The sweet spot there on a real ES-175 gives the lovely tone and it makes it nice to play very melodically. It is also lovely for chord solos.

So I am giving a shot to convert a nice used simple jazz box to see if I can get the sound by upgrading the electronics.

I got this guitar for $100 used. It has a cracked jack, and the electronics are poor. Pickups are weak. Setup is way out. But as a jazz box, the neck feels great and the body resonates nicely. It feels like a good starting point as a wooden box and nice neck to play on.

The guitar is an Ibanez AF75D.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xtqtrr ... sp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1iHOvXX ... sp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1K9ZgrO ... sp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1uKYPnp ... sp=sharing

If the electronics upgrade works I will take it get set up properly with a new nut.

I have this new pickup for the neck position: https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00 ... UTF8&psc=1

And I have an old but good Seymore Duncan humbucker for the bridge position.

Both pickups are 4 wire.

I want to wire the guitar with coil taps on the volume controls just to see what kinds of sounds I can get out of this guy. But I am mainly interested in that Gibson jazz tone with the tone rolled off 90% of the way down.

So before I wire it up, I am seeing all the choices for pot values and capacitors. Does any one know what gives those Gibson ES-175's that sound I am after? I will know it when I hear it and can try a few different things. But any advice is greatly appreciated!!

Thanks
DC

[Drew Stephenson]

I suspect Wonks is your guy, but he doesn't seem to be around much at the moment.

[Wonks]

I'm here! A vintage 175 would have 500k volume and tone pots. I finally 'finished' putting together a 175-style kit last year and fitted some low-cost Iron Gear 'Blues Engine' PAF-style pickups in it. I've got 500k pots on the volume and 250k on the tone (with 0.022uF caps), as by empirical testing, I still find I need to turn the tone controls down on a 250k pot a bit before I hear any loss of treble, so in my opinion, thist gives you a more useable control range than a 500k tone pot does. A 100k tone pot, (as Gibson have fitted in the past) would give full-range control, but you may be loosing a touch off the top end with the tone at 10 on that.



Obviously flatwound strings help with a jazz tone. Unfortunately the kit wasn't that good with regards neck angle, and I gave up with it trying to get a decent action as the neck angle is too flat. You could in theory do a neck reset, but its got a big old block and having redone the finish twice already, I can't face thinking about doing it a fourth time, plus the binding is already severely scraped back.

I'll have another go with it once it warms up enough to work outside, but I'm pretty stuck on what to do as I'm already using the lowest bridge I could find - and have filed away at that as well. It may have to be a very low floating wooden bridge.

Ignoring the high action (about 4mm at the 12th fret), it does sound nice and jazzy.

As long as your SD bridge pickup is a low output PAF-style, say a 59, then it should sound pretty close. You won't want anything like a JB on there.

[DC-Choppah]

That's a beauty!

You've got the 175 trapeze tail piece and knobs on there too. All part of the feel.

Looks great man. I like the red-burst color. Very nice.

Thanks for the tip on the pots and capacitor.

One question though, they are offering audio taper vs. linear taper pots. Do you know what style would be in the real 175? Does it matter?

It's really about that tone control. I just keep the volume at 10 (use a volume pedal in the efx loop) but use the tone control to find the sweet spot to get "that" sound.

[DC-Choppah]

Ignoring the high action (about 4mm at the 12th fret), it does sound nice and jazzy.

I just checked, and my jazz guitars are at 4mm at the 12th fret. I have my tech set it there, but I go by feel. I use 11's and that height feels just right to me.

With the heavier strings you can hit the string harder and wake up more tone from the guitar I think. If I go lower on the action then I can start to hear the strings contact the frets when hitting it hard and I don't like that. As for feel, you get used to it quickly.

[SecretSam]

FWIW the Pat Metheny signature models only have one pickup: the neck pickup. That should save some money (or it means you could sell the SD).

If you haven't already pulled the trigger on the new neck pickup, Bulldog pickups are great: top quality, custom made in the UK, and a lot cheaper than BKPs. The bloke who builds them is knowledgeable and approachable.

[Wonks]

Audio/log taper for both volume and tone. Always audio/log for volume, Tone pot is more of a personal choice but I go for audio/log there as well. It gives a smoother roll-off over the range of the pot. Linear tends to bunch the roll-off into the lower reaches of the travel, so not a lot happening for half the travel, and then a lot quite quickly. So say from 5 down to 0 for linear, as opposed to 8 or 7 down to 0 for audio. With a higher value tone pot (500k as opposed to 250k) then the range of control IMO is reduced by a couple of numbers, so 3 to 0 for linear and 6 or 5 to 0 for audio/log.

It's not as big a difference as audio vs linear for volume, but it is noticeable.

[Wonks]

Hopefully you should be able to fit a rectangular jack plate over the old jack hole. Have a look round, as some plates are larger than others. Presumably the original owned dropped it with a jack still plugged in, which tore away the sides around the jack socket.

Being fully hollow, the pots and wiring harness can be fitted through one of the pickup holes. This is a lot easier than trying to fit them all in through an F-hole, especially when using switched pots.

Use a cardboard template for making your wiring harness, and make sure to mark on the F-hole position, so that you run the wires around the F-hole and not across it. Just visual, but it does look untidy.

With the selector switch in that location, the harness will be fairly similar to that in a 335. I find this chap pretty good for showing how to wire a 335 harness. https://youtu.be/Z42WwxbrWTc

And these for wiring push/pull pots:
https://youtu.be/txClld2PDuU
https://youtu.be/CHL6-lauM7o

I'd suggest using the 'vintage' wiring method, with the tone pot connection taken from the output connection of the volume pot, not the input tab from the pickup. It stops treble loss when turning the volume pot down, but does make the volume and tone controls slightly interactive with regards to level.

A Jjazz box isn't the sort of guitar I think coil splitting works well on, especially with lower-powered humbuckers as the single coil mode is very weak and thin. It can work better with mid- and high-powered humbucker pickups as the single coil output is then a lot closer to a standard single coil - but the humbucker tone is then wrong for 'classic' jazz.

But you don't need to use the coil splits if you don't want to and it does give you options for a non-jazz sound, especially if you can only take one guitar to a gig. Though, a clean boost pedal with a small amount of gain set for volume balancing in single coil mode may be useful in this circumstance.

[Sam Spoons]

Pat Metheny said "Regarding his sound, Metheny states "To get my sound on the 175 I use flatwound strings and the tone control turned completely off. I used to use some chorus, but so many people have used that sound that it's almost become cliche" (Guitar, 1992)."

Does anybody know what the metal device he has fitted to the treble side f hole is?

edit :- I is, apparently, a somewhat cobbled together microphone mount, possibly for an AMT mic. The guitar has two output jacks.

[Hewesy]

As you've added it was/is a mic mount, the output was routed via the 2nd jack.

As noted the real key for this tone is flatwound strings. An absolutely essential element for an authentic jazz tone.

A great project, enjoy.

Hewesy

[DC-Choppah]

Audio/log taper for both volume and tone. Always audio/log for volume, Tone pot is more of a personal choice but I go for audio/log there as well. It gives a smoother roll-off over the range of the pot. Linear tends to bunch the roll-off into the lower reaches of the travel, so not a lot happening for half the travel, and then a lot quite quickly. So say from 5 down to 0 for linear, as opposed to 8 or 7 down to 0 for audio. With a higher value tone pot (500k as opposed to 250k) then the range of control IMO is reduced by a couple of numbers, so 3 to 0 for linear and 6 or 5 to 0 for audio/log.

It's not as big a difference as audio vs linear for volume, but it is noticeable.

Thank's for that. I've got the audio taper 250k pots all around then. Gonna try that first. Definitely want the warmer sound and good feel on the tone control to find the sweet spot. I hate it when all the action is at the end of the knob. Makes it hard to punch-in record since you can't get back to the same sound.

[DC-Choppah]

FWIW the Pat Metheny signature models only have one pickup: the neck pickup. That should save some money (or it means you could sell the SD).

If you haven't already pulled the trigger on the new neck pickup, Bulldog pickups are great: top quality, custom made in the UK, and a lot cheaper than BKPs. The bloke who builds them is knowledgeable and approachable.

The Benedetto pickup has arrived. This guitar has two holes, so I have to put SOMTHING in that second hole. Right!?

Will be cool to nail the jazz sound, but then make some other unique sound out of this guy too.

[DC-Choppah]

Pat Metheny said "Regarding his sound, Metheny states "To get my sound on the 175 I use flatwound strings and the tone control turned completely off.

Something about flatwounds, the way they sound when the string hits the frets and the way they sound when your finger releases a note bothers me. Although I don't hear those sounds when Metheny plays?!? I am going to have to try both kinds of string on this guitar. I think you are right that the strings and the electronics is what I am really hearing.

Metheny also says that on the Secret Story album (one of my favorites), that he plays both the 175 and the Ibanez depending on the tune. He says nobody has ever been able to tell which tunes use which and that folks are only 50% accurate in guessing. I find that encouraging for my little project.

[DC-Choppah]

Hopefully you should be able to fit a rectangular jack plate over the old jack hole. Have a look round, as some plates are larger than others. Presumably the original owned dropped it with a jack still plugged in, which tore away the sides around the jack socket.

This works. It is the jack for an acoustic guitar and oval curved jack plate.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/11ch7C6 ... sp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1uWpxdL ... sp=sharing

I like this because the threaded nut is on the inside, and I made it tight and used thread lock. Hopefully it never comes off. The jack plate screws into the guitar and covers the damaged hole. Need to wire it all up before mounting it.

[DC-Choppah]

I'd suggest using the 'vintage' wiring method, with the tone pot connection taken from the output connection of the volume pot, not the input tab from the pickup. It stops treble loss when turning the volume pot down, but does make the volume and tone controls slightly interactive with regards to level.

OK this is cool. I am trying to recreate the feel of the ES-175 that I loved playing once. I do recall noting that when I turned down the volume, the tone did not change the way it does on some guitars. Having that volume control sometimes is a life saver at a gig.

This looks very simple. The tone pot just connects to the output side of the volume pot. I will try it this way first.

[DC-Choppah]

A Jjazz box isn't the sort of guitar I think coil splitting works well on, especially with lower-powered humbuckers as the single coil mode is very weak and thin. It can work better with mid- and high-powered humbucker pickups as the single coil output is then a lot closer to a standard single coil - but the humbucker tone is then wrong for 'classic' jazz.

But you don't need to use the coil splits if you don't want to and it does give you options for a non-jazz sound, especially if you can only take one guitar to a gig. Though, a clean boost pedal with a small amount of gain set for volume balancing in single coil mode may be useful in this circumstance.

OK. Maybe coil split is not the right thing. I am going by ear here.

I used to have this guitar. It had two humbuckers. But it also had a little switch. When you had the three way pickup selector switch in the middle position, and threw the little switch, the tone would change radically. Sort of got a strat-sound, but different. I used to love that sound. I wonder if I can wire this guitar for that using those push/pull switches that I have now.

[Kwackman]

When you had the three way pickup selector switch in the middle position, and threw the little switch, the tone would change radically. Sort of got a strat-sound, but different.

If it only worked when both pick-ups are on, maybe a parallel/series switch?

[Wonks]

If it only worked in the 'both pickups on' position, then it was probably a phase reversal switch for one of the pickups. That 'Peter Green' style sound. You wouldn't notice it with just one pickup at all. So you'd certainly get a thin 'out of phase' sound. Easy to do with a 4-wire pickup.

Series/parallel would give an even thicker sound in series mode than the standard parallel mode, so is unlikely to be described as a 'Strat sound but different'. Polarity reversal on one pickup is far more likely.

If the switch also affected the sound with just one pickup selected, then it was probably common coil spilt switch, but if just in that mid-position, then almost certainly a polarity/phase switch.

[Wonks]

Metheny also says that on the Secret Story album (one of my favorites), that he plays both the 175 and the Ibanez depending on the tune. He says nobody has ever been able to tell which tunes use which and that folks are only 50% accurate in guessing. I find that encouraging for my little project.

If he always plays with the tone rolled off completely, then I'm not surprised. There will be very little harmonic variation left in the sound to tell the guitars apart.

[Wonks]

Hopefully you should be able to fit a rectangular jack plate over the old jack hole. Have a look round, as some plates are larger than others. Presumably the original owned dropped it with a jack still plugged in, which tore away the sides around the jack socket.

This works. It is the jack for an acoustic guitar and oval curved jack plate.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/11ch7C6 ... sp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1uWpxdL ... sp=sharing

I like this because the threaded nut is on the inside, and I made it tight and used thread lock. Hopefully it never comes off. The jack plate screws into the guitar and covers the damaged hole. Need to wire it all up before mounting it.

It's personal preference, but I prefer not to use those barrel jacks if possible as they don't last as long as normal jacks in my experience. I use Pure Tone jack sockets now, as they have two sets of contacts and hold the jack plug very securely.



You should still be able to solder up the jack socket to the harness, then push it through the hole from the inside of the guitar so that you can fit it to the mounting plate (just leave enough extra cable length to do so) whene it's outside the guitar, and still tighten up the threads well and apply thread lock.

[DC-Choppah]

Metheny also says that on the Secret Story album (one of my favorites), that he plays both the 175 and the Ibanez depending on the tune. He says nobody has ever been able to tell which tunes use which and that folks are only 50% accurate in guessing. I find that encouraging for my little project.

If he always plays with the tone rolled off completely, then I'm not surprised. There will be very little harmonic variation left in the sound to tell the guitars apart.

He plays the 175 on "Rain River" here. Notice how he has a flute playing with him. The flute compliments the rolled-off tone of his guitar. But then when he solos he seems to adjust the tone a bit. Anyways, this is the sound!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Mz_EcyurNo

[Sam Spoons]

He seems to fiddle constantly with both volume and tone but the tone changes are pretty subtle (actually non existent on my laptop speakers, will listen on the monitors later). to my ears. I wonder if it's just a 'nervous twitch' sort of thing?

[DC-Choppah]

If it only worked in the 'both pickups on' position, then it was probably a phase reversal switch for one of the pickups. That 'Peter Green' style sound. You wouldn't notice it with just one pickup at all. So you'd certainly get a thin 'out of phase' sound. Easy to do with a 4-wire pickup.

Yes that was it, only worked when both pickups were on. It made the sound thinner and brighter. 'Black Magic Woman' guitar solo. Yes. Thank you, that's the sound!

OK I see, phase switch. Just flips the polarity of one of the pickups. Hot becomes cold. Cold becomes hot. I see how to do that with my push pull switch. Cool!

My pickups are both Seymor Duncan 4-wire jobbies.

The pickup I am putting in the bridge position is this (model SH-2N, marked with JN on the back): https://www.seymourduncan.com/single-product/jazz-model

It is a classic output (not high output) pickup. Supposed to go in the neck, but I will try it in the bridge.

So I will run them both in humbucker mode and not use the coil tap.

[DC-Choppah]

When you had the three way pickup selector switch in the middle position, and threw the little switch, the tone would change radically. Sort of got a strat-sound, but different.

If it only worked when both pick-ups are on, maybe a parallel/series switch?

I looked into the parallel/series thing. That's interesting. Thanks for that too. Looks like the sound I was after was actually the phase reversal of one of the pickups.

But now I have got this other push pull control too. So I like your idea. I am going to use that push pull switch to control the series vs. parallel wiring of one of the humbuckers.

And then I will have the ability to flip the phase with the other push/pull. Cool!

I love having lots of sounds available at the fingers!

So now, which pickup to control? Should I wire the bridge or the neck for series/parallel switching?

[Sam Spoons]

I have series wiring mod on both my Strats, one a standard 'vintage' setup but with the mid tone control rewired to roll the (IIRC) bridge pickup in series with whichever of the others is active the second, with two P90s, switches the pickups between parallel and series. It offers a useful extra mid range push and is very simple to do. My LP Custom has phase and coil tap switches, it's a 1975 with standard lowish output pickups and the coil tap never gets used, the phase switch is useful though, maybe I should replace the coil tap switch with a series switch.

As an aside, I saw an ad on FB Marketplace recently for this LP in which the neck pickup had been reversed for a 'Peter Green' out of phase sound



I didn't have the heart to tell him...