Recording Drums

[BRADEN CALDER]

Hi, I could do with some advice when it comes to recording drums.

I have a DW design Series Drum kit which sounds great. I use hats, ride, 2 crashes and a splash cymbal.

I use Pro-tools, and have an 8 channel audio interface.

i have a selection of microphones:
2 x Se2000
1x Se 3300a
1x SeX1D
1x Sure Beta 52a
1x sure Beta 57a
1x Sure sm58
2x Behringer pencil condensers (small)
4x RED audio RVD 9 dynamic mics

i struggle to get a decent overall sound, and wondering if anyone can guide me on a good mic mix, placement etc.

issues i regularly have: too much hi-hat bleed on overheads and snare mic. snare not sounding rather dull. kick not sounding as fat as id like. toms just too muddy.

sorry , lot to ask!
thanks
Braden

[Drew Stephenson]

Hi Braden, welcome to the forums.
I think the first question to ask is what environment you're recording in?
Is it a treated studio, a domestic room, or something like a village hall?

[BRADEN CALDER]

Thanks!
i record in my lounge currently. its approx. 4.5m x 10m. its not acoustically treated in anyway.

i have a thick carpet throughout, mixture of stone and plastered walls. 3 large windows, but i do have curtains i can drawer over them.
not sure if this helps?

[Wonks]

Ceiling height?

[BRADEN CALDER]

ceiling height is 2.3m

[Hugh Robjohns]

It's always difficult to get a good sound from a kit unless it already sounds good in the room. Thick carpets and low ceilings rarely make that likely...

In which case, close miking to exclude as much of the room as possible is usually the best way forward. But close-miking inherently captures a fairly unnatural sound from each element, so be prepared to have to get heavy with the EQ to create something more acceptable. And, as always, small changes in mic placement and angle can make big differences in sound character and spill from other kit elements, so experiment -- especially with the kick mic and snare placements.

issues i regularly have: too much hi-hat bleed on overheads and snare mic.

I think this is often mostly down to playing technique. The overheads just capture what's coming up from the kit. If there's too much hat then the hat is being hit too loudly!
You can experiment a bit with placement of overheads and angling of the snare drum mic, but the range of adjustment through that means is usually pretty limited.

You could also be getting splash back from the close ceiling into the overhead mics. Try moving the mics right up till their virtually touching the ceiling and/or wedge a piece of acoustic foam between the mic and ceiling.

snare not sounding rather dull. kick not sounding as fat as id like. toms just too muddy.

Again, careful positioning of the mics relative to the respective drum heads in combination with handfuls of EQ will solve most of that. Also, drum tuning can make quite a big difference. The modern drum sound is a long way away from the sound of a real acoustic kit, so don't be afraid to pile on the EQ to get the sound you want/need. Fidelity is not usually a requirement in this area!

These articles might help:

https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/engineers-guide-tuning-and-damping-drums

https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/recording-drums

https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/recording-drums-what-difference-does-room-make

https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/drum-recording-small-room

[James Perrett]

issues i regularly have: too much hi-hat bleed on overheads and snare mic.

I used to have similar issues recording my drums. Two things helped...

First, paying attention to my playing technique and being far more careful about how I play the hi hats. Second, using Pearl CX500 hi hats which have a much thinner sound than others that I've used. These hi hats have their own space in the frequency range and don't sonically obscure other parts of the kit as much. My kit doesn't look very impressive but over the years I've tweaked it so that it sounds reasonably good when miked up (or at least that's what I think).

[Wonks]

Tuning, good new heads and correct set up of the snare are also very important. And good quality cymbals. Even the best miking technique can’t make a badly set-up kit sound good.

I’m not a drummer but I have set up a friend's snare with new heads, snare element and tensioning strips as part of a drum mike comparison I was doing, then learnt how to tune it and it made a huge difference to the sound.

I obviously have no idea if you’ve gone through that process, but if not, then it’s something that really is fundamental to getting a good drum recording.

[BRADEN CALDER]

Thanks Everyone! much appreciated.
will give it a try.
will the SE2000 large diaphragm condensers be ok as overheads?
also is it worth putting an extra mic on the kick, or extra under the snare from your experience? i had in mind to do:
Two overheads
3 toms
1 kick
1 snare
1 spare input - glad of suggesttions!

thanks again

[James Perrett]

If you are having problems with a dull snare and hi hat bleed then a mic under the snare might help.

[BRADEN CALDER]

Thanks James. will give it a go.
one last question.
is it a no go to use different mics on toms?
my RED audio mics are fairly rubbish, so wondering about using a Sure PG48 on small tom, Sure SM58 on Med Tom, and SeX1D on Floor tom.
worth a go? or is that a no no?
the RED mics are rather budget.

[shufflebeat]

I've posted this up a couple of times over the years but I still think it's worth a listen/watch:

https://youtu.be/4qgmY8jIGi0

Comb filtering in a room like yours.

[James Perrett]

Mic position is really important - just a cm or two either way makes a difference. I'd be tempted to to try the Red 5 mics but there's nothing wrong with using different mics on the different toms.

[Dave Rowles]

Great advice so far!

As you've only got 8 ins then placement is key as you're not going to be able to go overboard with mics. I'd also consider if using 2 overheads is worth it, but that depends if you're going for a full stereo feel on the kit.

I go full on "accept the bleed" on my hi-hat and sack off the hi-hat mic completely. I tend to use a large diaphragm mic at the side of the snare, tight in to the shell, and that captures the top and bottom of the snare nicely while also capturing the hats quite well. Experiment with the height of the OHs as well. If the Red mics are not giving you enough body then closer OHs might be a good way to go.

Another trick to try is to place one OH on omni the kit just over the drummer's head and just record the playing. This will highlight any inconsistencies with the balance of the performance on the kit. Remember the best way to get a balanced recording is for the balance to be there to begin with. I did this and then altered my playing to drastically reduce the force I used on the hi-hat, and similarly up the volume of my tom playing which seemed weak in comparison. I'd already got a does of reality from a friend who recorded me when he said "We replaced the bass drum on the recording because yours was really wussy" - Very ouch.

With 8 ins I'd go:
1 - Bass Drum - B52a - In hole
2 - Snare - SE Z3300a - side mic snare
3 - Snare bottom - B57a
4 - Tom 1 - Red Audio
5 - Tom 2 - Red Audio
6 - Tom 3 - Se X1D
7 - OH L - SE2200
8 - OH R - SE2200

If you went mono overhead I'd switch the X1D to a second bass drum mic, possibly beater side of the drum.

[DC-Choppah]

A few things that helped me get a good drum sound and might help you too:

- Fresh skins!
- Tune the drums so they resonate. You will know.
- Put diffusers on the ceiling above your kit.
- Sheet of plywood under the entire drum set makes the kit 'snappy' and more fun to play.
- SM57 sounds great on snare.
- Some mics just sound bad on drums. Sennheiser MD421 and e600 sound great on drums.
- Use the special 'recording' hi-hats.
- Use a room mic and make sure the kit sounds good from the room mic position and picks up a deep bass drum sound using the room. Have one mic in the mix that has the whole kit in it sounding good as a unit.
- Cymbals can be darker for recording vs. playing live. May need to choose the cymbals for the song.

Man, took me years these figure out. Hope some of it can help you out.

[BRADEN CALDER]

Thanks Everyone for the advice! certainly appreciate it. lot to try here

[shufflebeat]

Something I found useful was to wear some wired IEMs under industrial ear protectors for experimenting with mic placement. I found it impossible to coordinate the placement/monitoring process effectively otherwise.

[Moroccomoose]

A trick I learned, probably on this fora is to put a delay of 3-4 seconds on your monitors, so you can play a phrase, then listen to how it sounds. This makes the whole mic placement and subsequent adjustments much easier.

Stu.

[S2]

Without being too sycophantic there is a wealth of information here.

https://youtu.be/DOsBVAp1LWI

Sensible real world stuff that seems to cater for your situation.

[The Red Bladder]

Please follow DC-Choppah's advice!

You have been buying mics by the kilo - a few good mics are better than a pile of Chinese junk. As Bruce Swedien (see below!) said "Good mics are your secret weapon!"

You can use the Shures on toms and snare and even as overheads - there is no law that says OHs have to be magic condenser mics.

Go out and buy an Audix D6 for the kick. This is a must-have mic!

This is how Bruce Swedien (Google him!) told me (at the AES NY ages ago) he records a drum kit.

1. Get rid of the resonance skin on the kick and replace it with a bare hoop.
2. Empty the kick. Throw out the pillowcases, blankets, beer cans and the dead cat. Leave it empty!
3. Cover the kick with a tailored duvet that fts over it and has a slit so that you can run a cable through it for a mic.
4. Put the kick mic inside and to one side, not the middle.
5. MD421s on the toms.
6. Tune the skins to perfection.
7. Press the record button.

That's it! Get ready to be amazed at the difference!

[Terrible.dee]

LAY....OFF....THE.....CYMBALS!!!!

Just DO IT!

Play the half as hard as you normally would....or less....but cymbal bashing DESTROYS a drum track....it makes every mic sound like crap.

Other than that, you can record kick ONLY to a scratch track, EDIT the kick, then record snare and toms (some say Hat too....I say if you are already going to this length...lay off the damn hat.)

THEN record cymbals and hat.

Sounds like fun, no?

LAY OFF THE CYMBALS!

Other than that, change your heads and TUNE your drums. (PRO TIP: Mark the key off the song, and tune the kick...say a four down from the fundamental...all of a sudden they are no longer fighting for real estate...tune your snare a 4th up....same difference....toms can be a third up.....just keep them away from the bass...use the frequency real estate at your disposal.