Live multicamera video - sound advice needed!

[ChrisFelixstowe]

Hi! For the past 15 years, I've been making video as a journalist and programme maker in a very small way, so have a pretty good idea of mic use with a camcorder . . . no prob,really.
But I now need to start producing live local current affairs video, and my first attempt was a disaster, because I plugged a hand mic into a Datavideo video mixer, and got a very low level of sound. A local expert suggested that I put a sound mixer into the chain, and this has resolved my level problem - headphone line out gives me plenty.
My main issue is now getting the right microphones. I have a couple of really ancient lavalier mics that work well with cameras, a rode NTG2, and a hand dynamic mic. My personal preference would be to buy another cheap dynamic with a desk stand, and put these in front of speakers. But would lavaliers work better in an ad-hoc studio with echo issues, and what spec should I look for to work properly with my XLR input mixer with switchable phantom power? There seem to be hundreds of brands/types out on Amazon, etc., so I am confused!

[Mike Stranks]

Welcome Chris!

Yup! I'd go with lavs every time...

What's your budget?

[ChrisFelixstowe]

My pension, to be honest, Mike - I run hyperlocal news now, and it all comes out of my very limited back pocket!
When I was making TV, it wasn't a prob, but these days there isn't any ad or sponsorship income to work with.
This is the weekly programme project this relates to: https://fb.watch/5Y_IHsxaFC/
This coming week I'll be working with the cheap dynamic running through the Podtrack, and experimenting with the one of the clip-ons I already have, but I'd like to buy a couple more - twenty or thirty quid would be enough to spend on each, bluntly!
Thanks for coming back to me!

[AlecSp]

From watching your video, the biggest problem you have is the horrible sounding room.

Lav mics will help a lot in getting more voice and less room - even cheapo ones will do an OK job here. https://cpc.farnell.com/pro-signal/mp33751/microphone-lavalier-black/dp/MP33751 come in under £10. But they need the typical 1.5-9v DC bias voltage that a radio pack usually gives. Assuming your mixer/interface supplicies phantom power, then these should work: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/292092584672

But the best benefit you'll get is treating the room. This needn't be expensive, a few ladders with duvets/blankets hung on them, or draw the curtains - it'll make a world of difference. Or, ideally, use a better room. Just listen to how much better the audio sounded in the wool shop - there's a reason for that...

[MOF]

I’d agree with the others about lavs though be careful where you put them, that chain could end up knocking the lav all the way through the interview.
You’ve got large level differences between the wool shop and Mayor interview and the music abruptly finishes at the end.
Also, on a non sound related issue, what is happening with your subtitles, they look like poor speech recognition software content and massively delayed, they hadn’t caught up even by the last frame?

[Tim Gillett]

My personal preference would be to buy another cheap dynamic with a desk stand, and put these in front of speakers

Yes much better. The speech would be clearer, relaxed and more natural. The room echo would diminish greatly. And now no need to plaster on all that horrible Noise Reduction, or is it just a low bitrate recording?

Unfortunately desk stands can allow table thumps to transmit into the mic body. Some mics are better than others at rejecting this noise. Special shock absorbing mic mounts are also available.

[Mike Stranks]

I use wireless sets for this sort of work, but I don't think your budget will run to that...

But this: https://www.wexphotovideo.com/boya-dual-mic-lavalier-microphone-for-smartphones-and-dslrs-1746120/?mkwid=s8z6SnF6k_dc&pcrid=310558798078&kword=&match=&plid=&product=1746120&pgrid=57294105050&ptaid=aud-407807923907:pla-1145514465555&gclid=Cj0KCQjw5PGFBhC2ARIsAIFIMNdI0qJKNXTkxP3KvThywEiuFZVULP-fMsjWMtKNMzQsrCaFF-lKeA8aAmBGEALw_wcB

may suit...

I've bought stuff from Wex and they're good at returns if there are any issues.

There are some cheaper two into one wireless units on EBay at present, but you need to buy with discernment as they can have low-level hiss which requires careful use of noise reduction to clean up the sound...

[ChrisFelixstowe]

A major thank-you to you all! Some seriously good advice here, and I'll do my best to carry it out.
At this stage, I've gone for the pair of lavs by Boya (thanks, Mike), and will try these - they may also help with to-camera interviews.
I'll also try Tim's suggestion - have got a suspension unit which will carry a mic - thanks, Tim.
AlecSp - thanks, this is now in hand, the owner is hanging a curtain at one end of the room, which should help, I hope!
MOF, I think I've sorted the level issue, with a Podtrak 4 to act as a sound mixer, suppling a much better line signal to the video mixer, but the subtitles are from Facebook, and are crap! I'll try to kill them off.
Overall, glad I joined if all members here are as helpful and kind as you!

[Wonks]

Hanging a duvet up in the room will be more effective than a curtain, though doing both will help even more. In the past I've used a couple of boom mic stands with the booms clipped and taped together in the middle. Though I've now got a frame clothes hanger to hang the duvet from, which the wife can also use to dry things on if it's a wet day, so it passes the multi-purpose test.

https://smile.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B ... UTF8&psc=1

[AlecSp]

Hanging a duvet up in the room will be more effective than a curtain, though doing both will help even more. In the past I've used a couple of boom mic stands with the booms clipped and taped together in the middle.

All of this!

It always amazes me how much people will spend on video kit, yet accept hideous sound which makes the end result painful to consume.

You typicaly never notice how bad a room sounds until you listen to playback. Absorbent material and close micing are your friends here.

Keep going and listen critically to your results. Experiment, too. You should find everything improving as you go.

[ChrisFelixstowe]

Thanks, Wonks and AlecSP.
As the room is an art gallery, it has ceiling and wall fitments, so I'll be able to hang a duvet up, and should have the lavs by then, so we'll see where we stand on Thursday, when we'll go live with the next show.
I'll post a link to the show on this thread, so you'll be able to see what happens if interested!

Best wishes, Chris

[Mike Stranks]

Not directly applicable to Chris because of budget constraints, but...

I spent yesterday afternoon shooting a promotional video in a charity residential centre- indoors and out.

The video consists of the Director and a member of the charity wandering hither and thither around the site and talking about the various activities and facilities.

I wired one with a Rodelink, the other with a Sennheiser XSW-D at the start of the afternoon and left the packs in place and on for the whole afternoon.

I used a Rode DCS-1 to mount the two receivers on the camcorder hot-shoe and a Rode SC11 to take the signals into the camcorder. The SC11 is good in that it routes one signal to the left of the stereo input and the other to the right. Not really usable 'as is' of course, but it does mean I have separate tracks that I can adjust independently in post and then pan to taste. (In this case, panning will be either a very slight L/R mix or simply converted to mono) Not yet decided... if time becomes a factor in post-processing then it'll be mono!

[ChrisFelixstowe]

Taken me time to get back to you, but I have to say that I'm really pleased that I followed Mike's suggestion and bought the pair of Boya lav mics wired to a single power pack and jack. It got over all my echo probs, and I ran it into a Podtrak 4 podcast/mixer device which boosted the signal into the final video mixer.
I got good feedback from the live show, and am delighted to give you all my sincerest thanks for your kind help!
Here's a link to the Facebook recorded version:

https://fb.watch/665K-8BOB4/

[Drew Stephenson]

Sounds good, still a bit of 'room' in there but perfectly clear and audible.

[AlecSp]

*So* much more listenable to than before. Amazing, considering this is the same room as before - was the room treated this time?

But there's more you can do - get more voice and less room just by wearing the lav mic higher - it was practically on your belly! Take it up by two buttons and you're practically halving the difference between the mic and the sound source. Cost £0, impact appreciable.

[Tim Gillett]

If listening on a wide range system (ie: good fidelity) very boomy, bassy voice, especially the interviewee on our left. It's crying out for some EQ to make it sound more natural, intelligible and easy to listen to. Compare the seaside interview (14:33) where the voices are clear and natural sounding, even accounting for the room contribution.

Maybe heavy Denoising has wiped out much of the speech highs, leaving the remaining bass too strong by comparison.

[ChrisFelixstowe]

Thanks, all. TBH, I though it worked out not too badly - at least the audience could hear what was said!
Will move the mics up as suggested, and see how that goes.
There has been no sound treatment on the room, although the owners are thinking about what they want to do - the level of echo is simply too much for people in the room.
There's no denoising or any sound treatment at all in the system - I don't really know what this means other than on a post editing system like Vegas.

[Tim Gillett]

...There has been no sound treatment on the room, although the owners are thinking about what they want to do - the level of echo is simply too much for people in the room.

OK, it might have helped if initially you had mentioned that the venue has such severe reverberation problems.

As mentioned initially, standard directional stage vocal mics on desk stands, aimed at the speakers' mouths, and reasonably close, have a much better chance of giving good speech clarity and minimising very bad venue noise as you obviously have there.

Lavs are at somewhat of a disadvantage because they miss much of the clear, direct sound from our mouths, often being placed in a kind of voice shadow. Plus they pick up chest vibrations which tend to obscure the speech clarity as well. Targeted EQ can be improve things but lavs are always at a disadvantage re more direct micing. Much of the problem is the compromised placement.

Also if the lavs are directional, they will pick up less room noise than if omni directional but they need to be oriented with their directional end pointing the right way of course.

There's no denoising or any sound treatment at all in the system - I don't really know what this means other than on a post editing system like Vegas.

To my ears it's either a Denoiser or a very low bitrate recording or perhaps a bit of both.

I use Vegas. I think it has a Denoiser or perhaps a Noise Gate always open on audio tracks. The first thing I do when I get into effects plugins is to switch it off.

You certainly have a tough acoustic to work in. All the best with it.

Tim.

[Mike Stranks]

Hi Chris!

Just had a quick look...

As has been mentioned, get those mics up higher... 1st shirt button!

First suggestion: apply a high-pass (lo-cut) filter at about 100Hz with a fairly steep curve... there's nothing below that frequency in the human voice that's of the slightest interest.

Second suggestion: get some acoustic treatment in that room. I'm a great believer in these:
https://www.studiospares.com/acoustics/acoustic-panels/acoustic-panel-1200-x-600mm-beige-465230.htm Various sizes and colours available in that range.

There's more that could be done, but you're well on the way!

[Tim Gillett]

There is nothing in the interviewee's voice below 100 Hz. The voice (and the room resonance) is boomy from above 100 Hz up to the 500's, perhaps higher. I would gently roll off bass starting from roughly 1000Hz. Maybe 5 to 10 db down at 100 Hz.

[AlecSp]

Tim, I think you missed the early part of this thread, where we covered a load of this, along with the original video that was almost unlistenable to with too much room.

The latest version is oodles better, and just repositioning of the lav mics (free and quick to achieve) will probably get close enough.

We know the room is nasty. Cheap acoustic panels will do a lot (modest cost), as would a couple of hung duvets (free) - though the mic placement has delivered most of what's needed.

Point taken on the EQ on the lav mics - there's no problem on the kind of kit most people will use for content like this, though., though - if you have a HPF (high pass filter, a.k.a. low cut) on the mixer channels, press it in. If you don't have a HPF, then maybe it really isn't worth worrying about.

[Tim Gillett]

Tim, I think you missed the early part of this thread, where we covered a load of this, along with the original video that was almost unlistenable to with too much room.

I was in on the thread from the start.

The latest version is oodles better,...

It's not the lavs themselves that are reducing the room reverb.

Any closer placed mic will sound better than it did further away.

We have not heard what stage vocal mics would have sounded like close to and in front of the speakers, only the lavs closer. Not a fair comparison.

[Mike Stranks]

Tim:

I think you may not be taking full account of the fact that this is audio for video.

While it's undoubtedly true that using directional mics close to the speakers' mouths will ameliorate some of the room effects, they will also detract from the 'video experience' for the viewer.

IME experience audio-for-video is nearly always a compromise between what would be best/better and what looks good and non-intrusive on camera. I was shooting a significant video on Sunday. I had to compromise significantly on mics and placement, which I would not have had to do if I was just concentrating on the audio side of things.

And a general point for all video-makers, community radio people, podcasters with guests etc etc etc.:

We take sitting at a desk - or wherever - with a mic and associated ironmongery in front of us as a given. And that's not to mention all the other gubbins often associated with capturing sound. To the average 'studio' guest it's often both a bit bewildering and somewhat intimidating. They're already nervous, and plonking them in front of gear only ratchets that up. Unobtrusive is good if it enables the guest to give of their best. Somewhat simplistically, quality of content allows comes before pristine audio.

Chris: You're doing well; you're on the right path; keep up the good work!

[Drew Stephenson]

Just a big +1 for Mike's last point about nervousness.
We've got a director at our place who's a great public speaker; confident, amusing, outgoing, sociable, with nice clear diction to boot. (Shame about the Yorkshire accent )
He regularly does little straight-to-phone updates for his area of the business and you can see he's relaxed and confident doing them.
Just before lockdown we needed to do some filming for an external video, so it was a bit more formal: lights, 2 cameras, separate mic. Nothing fancy by the standards of many here, but he walked into a room with half-a-dozen bits of kit arrayed in front of him and you could see him visibly tighten up.
I set the cameras going and it then took me about 10 minutes to get him to relax enough for a couple of takes.
And then I did the old, "We've got a couple of good takes in the can so I've got plenty to work with, fancy doing one more for luck?" Which was, of course, the one we used most of.