Belief in the Music we make

[tea for two]

I think it is sometimes too easy to loose self belief in the music we make.
Loose self belief in ourself.

We seem to have little say in this. Just happens.

I think it is so important to somehow  imprint upon ourself :  the music we make that is Personal to us, we can hold up amongst any music made in history of music, simply because it is personal to us, we know what we put into it.

It is this Personal aspect that makes our music comparable to any music by any famous musician.
Not the technical, compositional, musical ability side of things.

If there is one thing I could give to a musician, this would be it.
Without this self belief in our music, all the theory all the compositional musical ability in the world can become torturous for us.

I would wish those loosing lost self belief and or don't think much of their music (I've been there several years) would see things this way, no matter how many knock backs.

I know it's easier said than done. Sometimes we want to chuck it all in the bin, trash our gear, format our files.

I like humbleness humility of not thinking much of ourself musically, yet this shouldn't erode our belief in our music, ourself.

::

I've never shared on SoS any music I've made.
I've never contributed to SoS Forum Album. **
Yet I would put my Keyboard album up with any Keyboard music ever composed / improvised by any famous musician ever, simply because it is personal to me, I know how much of me went into it.
Similarly my Guitar, Plucked instrument album.

I've reached this realisation over 3decades after I first picked up an instrument.
I hope others get there before 3decades lol.

**(Also tbh I have no desire for anyone to plug their ears whilst listening to my music lol and or for doggies to start howling disapprovingly lol).

[awjoe]

I can compare my stuff to other people's stuff, and do a comparative ranking exercise, along the lines of 'Well, my guitar work's in the vicinity of Nick Drake's, but nowhere as good as Richard Thompson, but more interesting than Dylan's.' I can stand back and do that intellectual comparative analysis. But I stopped doing *value* comparisons a long time ago. That type of comparison often serves no purpose, makes you either miserable or obnoxious, and turns the whole exercise into a competition. Nothing wrong with competition, especially if it produces stellar work, but if the main thing it does is make you unhappy, it isn't your friend.

[Arpangel]

I don’t know what to say, except, a lot of my music doesn’t sound like anyone else’s, especially my electronic music, I’m being honest, my piano music is more conventional, and may be compared, others are doing similar things, but not quite.
A band member said "I’d know your stuff anywhere"
Do I have confidence in it, I don’t know, sometimes, maybe, I’m not really in the mood to say one way or the other.

[tea for two]

But I stopped doing *value* comparisons a long time ago.

I'd agree with this. As soon as we stop comparing we can then start believing in our music in our self.

::

Do I have confidence in it, I don’t know, sometimes, maybe,

I would say confidence is different from belief in our music.

(Here's something weird I still don't have confidence in my music yet I believe in my music).

[awjoe]

But I stopped doing *value* comparisons a long time ago.

I'd agree with this. As soon as we stop comparing we can then start believing in our music in our self.

Yup. And I don't know if you'd agree with the following idea, but for me it's part and parcel of believing in oneself: I don't pinch stuff and I don't copy stuff, I'm looking inside when I write and play, not outside. I mean, that's why I believe in it - it's the real deal, not a facsimile.

[Arpangel]

But I stopped doing *value* comparisons a long time ago.

This is all very well, but does it stand up to the test, at three in the morning, out of my head on Tequila, headphones on, listening to a Bach organ work, a Beethoven quartet, an Opera aria, Miles Davis, or a Charlie Parker solo, and I think, hang on, these were the real deal, the tears start flowing, and I just want to give up completely.
But the morning after is fine, all is forgotten, and I’m back in the studio, thinking I’m just a genius, as you can see, there’s a distinct lack of middle ground here, as usual.

[awjoe]

When I listen to Bach or Vivaldi (or Aldous Harding or Hank Williams), I'm lost in admiration, appreciation, and love for the beauty of their music. But I'm not responsible for their music. It's their music, not mine. But my attitude to my own music is different - I'm responsible for it. The danger of harsh self-judgement is so present that I simply don't go there. I can't afford it. Or rather, the creative process can't afford it. It thrives on being nurtured, not being attacked. So although I beat myself up regularly over all sorts of things, I've learned to leave that self-abuse out of the mix when it comes to music. Even at 3 am.

I've probably compartmentalized things psychologically, and there may well be a reckoning at some point, but that's the best I've managed to come up with so far.

[John Stafford]

I always have ideas for music I want to write, and my biggest concern is figuring out how to do it. I don't really compare my music with anyone else's.

I'm not going to rival the late Beethoven quartets, but so what? I'm not going to win 100m at the Olympics either. It's still fun to watch.

[Drew Stephenson]

I came to terms, a while back, that the reason I never got beyond my brief recording deal was that as a musician i'm simply not good enough.
So for me it's all about trying to write songs that are as good as I can get them and hoping that they might work for a few other people along the way.
It does make things easier to understand your target market.

[Arpangel]

I have a friend who is a song writer, he’s extremely critical of other people, rarely himself, but he’s not arrogant in any way, exactly the opposite.
I’ve been on a recording session with him, he knows "exactly"what he wants, he’s 150% confident that was he is doing is right, and it will work, and it does.
If it doesn’t, he lets others know in no uncertain terms, as it’s probably not his fault.
He has a cool, calm and undoubted sureness in the way he works, and he always works to a formula, everything is pre-planned, to the last detail, I’ve worked with him in a creative capacity, and I made a mistake once, there was no option to continue.
He is one of the most respected and talented musicians I know, I just wish, I had his confidence, and certainty about what I do.

[RichardT]

I think this a complex one! It’s hard to justify saying that any piece of music is objectively better than another. But I do feel that, even if I can’t justify it - for example I feel that Bach is better than Vivaldi, and Mahler better than Vaughan Williams.

For me it’s important that I think my music is ‘good’ rather than just ‘mine’ before I release it. I guess I mean it has a good architecture, and sense of flow, and that it gets me emotionally. If it doesn’t ‘work’ I won’t release it.

[awjoe]

...for example I feel that Bach is better than Vivaldi, and Mahler better than Vaughan Williams.

"Bach is better than Vivaldi"= I like Bach better than Vivaldi

Hope you agree with my tweak.

So, if 'Air on a G String' moves you more than anything you've ever written yourself, does that mean you don't believe in your own stuff as much? From what you've said, it sounds like you believe in your own stuff as long as it achieves a certain standard of excellence.

[RichardT]

...for example I feel that Bach is better than Vivaldi, and Mahler better than Vaughan Williams.

"Bach is better than Vivaldi"= I like Bach better than Vivaldi

Hope you agree with my tweak.

So, if 'Air on a G String' moves you more than anything you've ever written yourself, does that mean you don't believe in your own stuff as much? From what you've said, it sounds like you believe in your own stuff as long as it achieves a certain standard of excellence.

Yes, that's what it comes down to - even though I feel one is better than the other, I know that doesn't have any objective basis.

[awjoe]

Okay, we seem to be on the same, or a similar, page. So can we go a bit deeper on this one? This thread title caught my attention right away, and right from the start I was having trouble with the meaning of 'believe in' - that terminology doesn't really seem to apply to my attitude toward my own music. I mean, do you 'believe in' your body, for example? I don't 'believe in' my body and I don't 'believe in' my music - they're both just facts of existence.

Maybe it would be easier for me to deal with questions like:

How much do you like your own music?

What is your music worth to you?

If I understand tea for two correctly, he's (she's?) saying you have to feel your music has an inherent positive value, even if you compare it to other people's music.

[GilesAnt]

Of course Bach is better than Vivaldi - there was a quote somewhere about Vivaldi not writing 200 concertos, but writing one concerto 200 times.

[RichardT]

Okay, we seem to be on the same, or a similar, page. So can we go a bit deeper on this one? This thread title caught my attention right away, and right from the start I was having trouble with the meaning of 'believe in' - that terminology doesn't really seem to apply to my attitude toward my own music. I mean, do you 'believe in' your body, for example? I don't 'believe in' my body and I don't 'believe in' my music - they're both just facts of existence.

Maybe it would be easier for me to deal with questions like:

How much do you like your own music?

What is your music worth to you?

If I understand tea for two correctly, he's (she's?) saying you have to feel your music has an inherent positive value, even if you compare it to other people's music.

I think Tea For Two means something different by ‘believe’ than ‘believe in the existence of’ but that’s just my interpretation. I interpret them to mean ‘believe it’s worthwhile’. So I think you’re right.

[Eddy Deegan]

Having completed two SOS forum album projects, being in the process of preparing the 3rd for release, having heard the works submitted to Dave B's several epic One Synth Challenges and having bought more albums than I care to mention from forum members with Bandcamp offerings it's clear that there is a wide variety of excellent music being produced by people in our own Sound On Sound community.

Many folks here massively undersell themselves IMHO. I would name names but I don't want to embarrass anyone. Sure, many of us have a ways to go to improve our mixing and engineering chops but a number of folks here are superb at those skills.

I 'believe' in the music I create but I'm equally aware my weaknesses mainly lie in the engineering, though I continually work on it and it's improving with input from the folks who generously take the time to help when I ask, either directly or through the Self Promotion forum which I can recommend highly.

It's easy to conflate good music with good engineering. I've heard the works of many amateurs/hobbyists who wouldn't claim to know one end of a mic' from the other but who write, record and provide (on SoundCloud, Bandcamp and so on) brilliant material.

A few people get to the point where they can both create original material and engineer it to a high standard but if you can't engineer as well as you'd like then that certainly has no bearing on the music itself.

I know with certainty there are a number of 'undiscovered gems' amongst our membership because I've heard their work and if anyone takes the trouble and time to seek them out it's greatly worth the effort as a lot of them don't promote themselves for one reason or another.

[Eddy Deegan]

I came to terms, a while back, that the reason I never got beyond my brief recording deal was that as a musician i'm simply not good enough.

I was digging back in a forum search looking for something completely different and saw this along the way.

I don't want to blow smoke up the proverbial Drew but I disagree with your conclusion. The finer points of engineering and musicianship are always up for discussion but heaven knows it's something we all work at. The Zukans and Elfs of this world leave most of us in the dust on the former and in addition to them there are more people still who can help the latter but you're certainly able to render worthy renditions of your musical works.

Maybe you didn't find the right A&R person, or whatever the equivalent is these days, but in terms of lyricism/storytelling my humble opinion is that you're right up there with the best of them and those strengths have enormous potential were you to be aligned with someone who can 'embrace and extend' such things as chord progressions and formal musical chops.

You could read that as a criticism but it's anything but. I know more than one artist who has taken their work to the next level by getting help with things that aren't their comfort zone whether it's engineering, arrangement or contributing sections of original composition. Meanwhile they've been able to focus on their own strengths and responding/working with that qualified input.

Your recent invite for others to collaborate with you is a wonderful idea and with a little patience, I think it'll yield great results.

[awjoe]

@ GilesAnt

Mm. How many concertos did Bach write? I'm familiar with six.

[awjoe]

I would name names but I don't want to embarrass anyone.

We could all name names.

the Self Promotion forum which I can recommend highly.

Me too, but you know what? What I would like to hear is music being made (or contributed to) by the SOSers (saucers?) who don't post their stuff in the self-promotion forum. Just saying there must be a *ton* of music made by people here which never gets heard by people here. Am I wrong? Can I get a witness?

(Gets off soap box, heads back to self promotion forum)

[tea for two]

I came to terms, a while back, that the reason I never got beyond my brief recording deal was that as a musician i'm simply not good enough.
So for me it's all about trying to write songs that are as good as I can get them

I took nearly a decade breather from making music (late 2010 to late 2019 although I widdled on ipad in between, brought some gear) after I realised how limited I am.

It was liberating, brought a sense of peace inside me this realisation.

::

When I listen to Bach or Vivaldi (or Aldous Harding or Hank Williams), I'm lost in admiration, appreciation, and love for the beauty of their music. But I'm not responsible for their music. It's their music, not mine. But my attitude to my own music is different - I'm responsible for it. The danger of harsh self-judgement is so present that I simply don't go there. I can't afford it. Or rather, the creative process can't afford it. It thrives on being nurtured, not being attacked.

I totally agree with this. Others music is others. Ours is our.
This why I wrote we can hold up our music to any music in history of music because it is personal to us same as famous musicians music is personal to them.
We can't hold it up in terms of theory, compositional musical ability yet that is different from the personal belief in our music.

It's this personal belief that should help us nurture our musical self.

::

I always have ideas for music I want to write,

...

I'm not going to rival the late Beethoven quartets, but so what? I'm not going to win 100m at the Olympics either. It's still fun to watch.

Exactly. Music in its Source is never about comparing, rivalry (some musicians have made it so).
Music in its Source is about the personal impact it has upon us.

::

For me it’s important that I think my music is ‘good’ rather than just ‘mine’ before I release it. I guess I mean it has a good architecture, and sense of flow, and that it gets me emotionally. If it doesn’t ‘work’ I won’t release it.

This judgement is an essential aspect of making music.
What to keep and polish, to cut and cull, to alter improve.

I would never put on an album any of my doodlings. As they are pants. Yet I still belive in my doodlings to keep on doodling lol.

::

I think Tea For Two means something different by ‘believe’ than ‘believe in the existence of’ but that’s just my interpretation. I interpret them to mean ‘believe it’s worthwhile’. So I think you’re right.

Maybe this

I'm finishing an album working on final track it's 5th on the album.
In myself I have belief in the melodic music for this album.
It is this belief that makes me make music for this album.

Yet if anyone anywhere, excluding family, said let's have a listen I'd shrug blow a raspberry eurrrggghh it's just doodling :  no confidence.

I gave an album to a Grammy winning Mastering Engineer last year to be mastered yet I never released the album even though I believe in the album.

::

I have a friend who is a song writer,
I’ve been on a recording session with him, he knows "exactly"what he wants, he’s 150% confident that was he is doing is right, and it will work, and it does.
... he always works to a formula, everything is pre-planned, to the last detail
...
I just wish, I had his confidence, and certainty about what I do.

He sounds like Hitchcock lol. Hitchcok said he pre-planned everything to the last detail before filming. Then it was just following through.

As a teen to mid 20s I was brimming with confidence. Then as with most of us life hits, knocked the stuffing outta me / us.
I don't think I will ever be confident and I'm grateful because in return it has brought several other things that's been enriching.

::

Having completed two SOS forum album projects, being in the process of preparing the 3rd for release, having heard the works submitted to Dave B's several epic One Synth Challenges and having bought more albums than I care to mention from forum members with Bandcamp offerings it's clear that there is a wide variety of excellent music being produced by people in our own Sound On Sound community.

Many folks here massively undersell themselves IMHO.

I 'believe' in the music I create but I'm equally aware my weaknesses mainly lie in the engineering, though I continually work on it

For sure.

I mentioned in Musicians Lounge if I had the connections I would given SoS forum album to the Cohen Brothers, Wes Anderson, to be included in their Movies. This is the confidence I have in the music on those SoS forum albums.

Belief in our music is essential to keep on making music. We need not have confidence in our music.
At the same time awareness of our weaknesses to improve where we can without beating up ourself.

Humbleness Humility in our compositional, musical ability is preferable to confidence I would say. Yet to become a musical *star* somehow have to blag being confident "fake it till you make it" kinda.

[Eddy Deegan]

What I would like to hear is music being made (or contributed to) by the SOSers (saucers?) who don't post their stuff in the self-promotion forum. Just saying there must be a *ton* of music made by people here which never gets heard by people here.

Absolutely - that was pretty much what I was trying to say but you put it better

[Folderol]

Interesting topic generally. It wouldn't be possible for me to not believe in the music I make. Sometimes I feel a bit of a fraud in that the best ideas seem to just arrive without conscious effort on my part - often in the middle of the night!

My take on this is that music is just a part of me. I never made a decision like 'I want to be a musician'. Things just happened. When I was a kid, there was a beat-up wood framed piano at home and I started messing about on it. Soon I was playing simple tunes on it.
I think I previously mentioned being inspired by a glass model sailing ship when I was 14. I held the basic melody for that in my head for years before I had the kit to be able to reproduce it. That was not a decision. I just found myself humming it from time to time.

[ManFromGlass]

I attended a Zoom talk from a person who worked in the Hollywood film music scene. She said that sometimes success in that business is down to who you know, so networking is important.
Other times it’s just dumb luck - being in the right place at the right time, having your track show up on the right desk exactly when a track like that is needed.
So do we control our destinies or are we just blown about by the winds of karma?

Folderol’s got posted before I finished typing. For me never any question about doing music and related. It just unfolded that way.