Fenestration

[ef37a]

Is it not about time our beloved leader Sam Inglis got himself a modest Windows machine?

In the review of the Volt interfaces in the current issue we are "Told there is an ASIO driver" but no clue is given as to how well this works.

Can I respectfully suggest that the kind of reader (that would be me) who is interested in interfaces and software at this price level is much more likely to have a Windows laptop than a mac? Even though macs probably outnumber Msft computers in the very serious end of recording and AV, in the general world they are much the minority.

If it is a question of money, maybe we can all have a whip round? You can get a pretty decent refurbed W10 lappy for under £500. I would happily start the ball rolling with a tenner.

I need to know how the Volt interfaces behave (or not!) on W10 especially their latency performance before i part with any ill-gottens!

Dave.

[ManFromGlass]

Good point, Dave. Although I’m on a Mac I find myself in an interesting position. My machine is old and I can’t run the latest Mac operating system. I know that there are latest music programs and plugins that won’t work on my machine as well as some that might. Do I roll the dice on software that might? Are refunds available? Hmmmm.

Being stuck in Mac-land means spending quite a chunk of dough if I want to be able to run the latest versions. This is where I have a bit of PC envy! But I’ll stick to my parsimonious ways as long as I can.

[Hugh Robjohns]

I understand where you're coming from Dave, and it would be great if everything could be tested in every system... but I think that would be an unaffordable luxury.

It's not just the cost of equipping numerous reviewers with extra laptops, or the time and trouble of keeping two different computer systems up to date. It's more the extra time involved in installing and then testing each review product twice. No freelancer is going to do that without wanting more remuneration, and staffers just don't have the time.

[shufflebeat]

Perhaps an agreeable forum member or two (there must be some) could be persuaded to put a piece of hardware through it's paces and answer a pre-arranged set of questions.

Price? Two stamps and an acknowledgement per head.

I realise not all hardware can be dropped into a jiffy bag and not all manufacturers would be happy with the prospect of their precious being passed from pillar to post but there could be variations on that theme.

[ef37a]

I understand where you're coming from Dave, and it would be great if everything could be tested in every system... but I think that would be an unaffordable luxury.

It's not just the cost of equipping numerous reviewers with extra laptops, or the time and trouble of keeping two different computer systems up to date. It's more the extra time involved in installing and then testing each review product twice. No freelancer is going to do that without wanting more remuneration, and staffers just don't have the time.

I understand that to a degree Hugh and we have been here before! I understand the time and resource pressures and would hate to see reviews become 'formulaic' but surely there are a few basic things we all need to know?

To stick with interfaces, basic ins and outs and a good idea how the gains and noise levels stack up. I do not mean by that that every fifty bob AI must be submitted to an AP rig! No, a chap as experienced as Sam will know in a jiffy if mic amps etc are up to stuff. What we the punters need to know is how the device is likely to perform in OUR setup. We cannot know that if the device is only tested on a mac. We might even say that if an AI's drivers are stable and fast in Windows it is almost certain to be at least as good on a mac?

I am not asking for gear to be tested on every mac OS, Ms OS, Linux and uncle Tom Cobbleys! Just the current version of Windows please?

There are of course manufacturers specifications ("Lies. dammned lies and spe....") but they of course are not worth the download time they take us without independent scrutiny. Let us never forget the fuel consumption SNAFU!

Dave.

[Matt Houghton]

Interfaces aren't in my section ofnthe mag, but here's my two penneth, for what it's worth... it's a more complex demand than it appears!

"The latest version" could well be an issue. I have both Win 10 and Mac machines -- and do often test things on both (eg I did that with my recent reviews of Wes Audio and Vochlea USB devices).

But I deliberately keep neither OS 'up to date' and I've also found that problems on Windows machines tend to be tricky (read: 'time consuming') to track down, since they're often hardware related conflicts.

There are so many variables - not just motherboard, processor brans and model, and RAM, but also things like wifi, security software... whereas with Macs these things are more 'off the peg'. So if I run into such a problem, that tells you very little...

Then there's Win 11. I have no intention of updating to that for a long time. Should we test on both Win 10 and Win 11? Lots of readers still haven't moved to Win 10 yet. And how many versions of MacOS and Mac hardware? Etc.

[ef37a]

Hello Matt and thanks for coming in. The " W10 or W11" question is an easy one IMVHO. Win ten all the way. As far as gear in the shops and going to SoS is concerned, THE current OS is W10. If peeps are running W7 (I am a bit) even XP then they must seek out the drivers if they exist and take their chances. Things do move on like yer E10 and Pbfree pertol.

I don't really get this "keeping up to date" problem? I run this Lenovo W10 laptop, sometimes an HP i3 laptop and keep a W7 desktop for my printer (till that goes pop then I shall get a network printer) The Lenovo and the desktop are set to update automatically and do from time to time. I get notifications for the HP and do it when I have a mo'. I have run computers since 98SE days and have had little trouble with them and as they have 'matured' I get less. Which is handy because I am a dyed in the wool analogue man. I don't understand computers at all!

Dave.

[Hugh Robjohns]

The " W10 or W11" question is an easy one IMVHO. Win ten all the way.

You say that because you haven't updated yet... but the current OS is Win11 and all those who have new machines would winge if Win 11 wasn't tested, as might the manufacturers themselves! I can see the complaint emails now, "SOS testing obsolete systems..." It was only a few weeks ago that Johnny was posting a shame list of all the plugin manufactures that weren't supporting the current macOS!

So to keep most people happy we're now testing current and previous MacOS, and current and previous Win OS...

It would be lovely to be able to do it, but next to impossible to achieve.

[James Perrett]

Those of us using computers for a living tend to stay behind for a while when it comes to software versions - I'm still on last year's version of Windows 10 and will stay on it until it becomes unsupported in a few months time unless there is some big reason to upgrade. Fortunately with Windows the driver model hasn't changed much between Windows 7 and Windows 11 so testing with just one of those OS's should be sufficient to give an idea of performance.

Regular reviewers who use Intel Macs could easily setup a Windows partition which would mean that testing on Windows is as simple as rebooting the machine. Unfortunately this isn't so easy with the newer Macs.

[ef37a]

The " W10 or W11" question is an easy one IMVHO. Win ten all the way.

You say that because you haven't updated yet... but the current OS is Win11 and all those who have new machines would winge if Win 11 wasn't tested, as might the manufacturers themselves! I can see the complaint emails now, "SOS testing obsolete systems..." It was only a few weeks ago that Johnny was posting a shame list of all the plugin manufactures that weren't supporting the current macOS!

So to keep most people happy we're now testing current and previous MacOS, and current and previous Win OS...

It would be lovely to be able to do it, but next to impossible to achieve.

I think you know Hugh that by "current OS is W10" I meant that OS that the vast majority of people, musos or nay, are now using. Anyone who has been reading SoS for the last decade with know that you do not jump to the latest bizzwizz that Ms puts out. I was very happy with W7 and still don't like W10 a lot. My W7 HP is on the net several times a week and none of the dire predictions have come to pass. I often feel I was duped into buying a W10 machine!

Of course, any Windows machine Sam might get will only give results on tested AIs relevant to that machine but t'was ever thus. Mr Walker has told us often in his brilliant and still missed 'PC Notes' that nobody can guarantee perfect results with any particular combination of PC and AI.

Anyhooos...I shall buy a Volt soon and if the drivers are not on a par with my now quite elderly NI KA6 I shall ship it back under the distance trading regs.

And! Never mind the manufacturers complaining...I am complaining!

Dave.

[Hugh Robjohns]

I think you know Hugh that by "current OS is W10" I meant that OS that the vast majority of people, musos or nay, are now using. Anyone who has been reading SOS for the last decade with know that you do not jump to the latest bizzwizz that Ms puts out.

Yes, of course I know that... but if you buy a new PC to jump into music making it's gonna come with Win 11 now and so we really should be testing on Win 11 (and whatever the latest Mac OS is these days, Stripy Giraffe?), and noting any restrictions on backwards compatibility.

Anyhooos...I shall buy a Volt soon and if the drivers are not on a par with my now quite elderly NI KA6 I shall ship it back under the distance trading regs.

Good plan. Please report your findings back here for the good of the collective!

And! Never mind the manufacturers complaining...I am complaining

T'was always thus...

[Sam Inglis]

Good question! Like many businesses in the 'creative industries' SOS has long been a Mac-based business internally, so I've always had at least one Mac around for testing. At one point I had a Windows machine as well, but eventually it got too old to be relevant, so it was retired. I'll have a word with the powers that be and see if there might be any budget available for a new one as I do agree it would be useful.

That said... there are quite a few interfaces I've reviewed where Windows drivers haven't been available during the review period. Many manufacturers now seem to prioritise Mac support ahead of Windows. I'm not sure if that reflects a greater market share for Macs in music creation, or whether it's just easier to do.

[Arpangel]

Dave, a friend got a used 4 year old MacBook from CEX for £700, very high spec, I’ve got PC and Mac, but for some reason, the Mac has become my main music computer, it’s just so easy, hassle free, no constant updates, installs are easy too, most are plug and play.

[ef37a]

Dave, a friend got a used 4 year old MacBook from CEX for £700, very high spec, I’ve got PC and Mac, but for some reason, the Mac has become my main music computer, it’s just so easy, hassle free, no constant updates, installs are easy too, most are plug and play.

Geez! I paid half that for my i3 HP and that runs Samplitude ProX perfectly well and I have played 22 tracks of Cubase without glitches. The multitrack demos that come with Sam and AAudition 1.5 also play perfectly well. With my KA6 latency is no problem from a Evolution 'dumb' keyboard (I can only make noises for 'test'. Son was a decent keyboard player when he was here) What I am trying to say is that for OUR purposes and I suspect many more home jockeys, these fairly basic PCs are fine. Why would I pay £700 for anything else?

I really don't get all the troubles some people seem to have with Windows machines? Driver installation is usually pretty easy and straightforward if you RTFM. I also 'grew up' with desktops and like the future proofing. I can and have increased memory, USB port count, fitted quieter fans. Macs I understand are not so 'tweakable'? (unsteadiness of hand and lack of keenness of eye stops me dabbling with my laptops but I have two great techs in a shop end of my street. No, no big WINDOWS issue, worn keyboard.)

Hello Sam, nice of you to take my rant in such good part! I bow to your knowledge re AIs coming to you with "Windows drivers to follow" but can I suggest that probably does not apply so much to the sub £200 AIs I am talking about?

Dave.

[Arpangel]

I’ve said before Dave, I was running a 2004 Win XP machine up until five years ago, has my change to Mac, something more modern, made my music any better? and have I become more prolific? No, it’s just made be a bit less paranoid about things breaking, but my old computer was fine anyway, I got a new one simply because I thought I might as well, and I had a bit of spare cash.

[Sam Inglis]

Hello Sam, nice of you to take my rant in such good part! I bow to your knowledge re AIs coming to you with "Windows drivers to follow" but can I suggest that probably does not apply so much to the sub £200 AIs I am talking about?

Hi Dave,

A large majority of the sub-£200 USB audio interfaces actually use the same Windows ASIO driver anyway. There is one USB chipset that is in common use in these interfaces, and most if not all manufacturers use the OEM Thesycon driver with it. It's not always immediately obvious because most manufacturers bolt on additional control panel software which is their own. The giveaway is that you'll see an additional pop-up for USB Streaming Mode or similar alongside the buffer size setting.

Latency can vary a bit on top of that if the manufacturer also builds in a digital mixer for example, but at the more affordable end of the market there's usually no need for one.

[ef37a]

Hello Sam, nice of you to take my rant in such good part! I bow to your knowledge re AIs coming to you with "Windows drivers to follow" but can I suggest that probably does not apply so much to the sub £200 AIs I am talking about?

Hi Dave,

A large majority of the sub-£200 USB audio interfaces actually use the same Windows ASIO driver anyway. There is one USB chipset that is in common use in these interfaces, and most if not all manufacturers use the OEM Thesycon driver with it. It's not always immediately obvious because most manufacturers bolt on additional control panel software which is their own. The giveaway is that you'll see an additional pop-up for USB Streaming Mode or similar alongside the buffer size setting.

Latency can vary a bit on top of that if the manufacturer also builds in a digital mixer for example, but at the more affordable end of the market there's usually no need for one.

Hmm, that further confuses me Sam. On the one hand it is being said it is impractical to have a multiplicity of machine and OS's but above you tell me the ASIO driver is virtually the same in most budget interfaces? Thus it seem to me that any half decent W10 laptop would do to check mnfctrs claims for latency? Driver stability should also be pretty constant? This agrees with my limited experience. I have probably had 5 or 6 interfaces over the past 15years and installed them on XP, W7 even Vista! With few exceptions they all installed very well. None of the interfaces or computers were terribly expensive!

Dave.

[Drew Stephenson]

Thus it seem to me that any half decent W10 laptop would do to check mnfctrs claims for latency? Driver stability should also be pretty constant? This agrees with my limited experience. I have probably had 5 or 6 interfaces over the past 15years and installed them on XP, W7 even Vista! With few exceptions they all installed very well.

[Devils advocate] Then why does it matter if it's mentioned or not? [/Devils advocate]

[Sam Inglis]

Hmm, that further confuses me Sam. On the one hand it is being said it is impractical to have a multiplicity of machine and OS's but above you tell me the ASIO driver is virtually the same in most budget interfaces? Thus it seem to me that any half decent W10 laptop would do to check mnfctrs claims for latency? Driver stability should also be pretty constant?

Others might have said it was impractical to have a multiplicity of machines... personally, I think a single Windows test machine would be doable, although I wouldn't want to have to test things under multiple flavours of Windows. Whether there is much insight to be gained from measuring the latency of interfaces that use the same well known third-party driver is another matter.

[ef37a]

Thus it seem to me that any half decent W10 laptop would do to check mnfctrs claims for latency? Driver stability should also be pretty constant? This agrees with my limited experience. I have probably had 5 or 6 interfaces over the past 15years and installed them on XP, W7 even Vista! With few exceptions they all installed very well.

[Devils advocate] Then why does it matter if it's mentioned or not? [/Devils advocate]

Because!! (you little devil) we should not take the makers word for the performance on Windows. To me, just testing a bog s interface on a mac is like just buzzing a family hatchback around the Nurburgring and saying, "that's ok for the school run then". In any case, most of us are on Windows (bar a few funnies like Will!)

Dave.

[Folderol]

In any case, most of us are on Windows (bar a few funnies like Will!)

Dave.

Oi!. I'm watching you

[Eddy Deegan]

In any case, most of us are on Windows (bar a few funnies like Will!)

Dave.

Oi!. I'm watching you

There is comfort to be taken there insofar as it wasn't a finger or a grep

[tea for two]

In the review of the Volt interfaces in the current issue we are "Told there is an ASIO driver" but no clue is given as to how well this works.

I need to know how the Volt interfaces behave (or not!) on W10 especially their latency performance before i part with any ill-gottens!

Dave.

Here you go Dave.

https://m.youtube.com/c/JulianKrause/videos

Julian Krause's Windows review of UAD Volt 276 and Volt 2. With graphs, measurements, explanations.

::

Dear SoS I think you should consider requesting Julian Krause to review audio gear for SoS.

Julian is as thorough as Hugh.

Julian has to purchase audio gear to test.
Julian can only afford upto £400 gear to test.

It would be wonderful for Julian and SoS, to able to test the high end gear sent to SoS.

[ef37a]

In the review of the Volt interfaces in the current issue we are "Told there is an ASIO driver" but no clue is given as to how well this works.

I need to know how the Volt interfaces behave (or not!) on W10 especially their latency performance before i part with any ill-gottens!

Dave.

Here you go Dave.

https://m.youtube.com/c/JulianKrause/videos

Julian Krause's Windows review of UAD Volt 276 and Volt 2. With graphs, measurements, explanations.

::

Dear SOS I think you should consider requesting Julian Krause to review audio gear for SOS.

Julian is as thorough as Hugh.

Julian has to purchase audio gear to test.
Julian can only afford upto £400 gear to test.

It would be wonderful for Julian and SOS, to able to test the high end gear sent to SOS.

Why would SoS want to duplicate Julian's tests when they are freely available online?

I also think there are legal problems with purchasing gear and publishing reviews? certainly Vin (KAFKAT a fearless tester of latency) has had some trouble in that regard I understand? Not quite death threats but he has seriously rocked a few boats!). When Which magazine started up I seem to remember they has some serious legal ding-dongs?

No, I am reasonably happy with most of the SoS reviews although as a tekky old bstd who grew up with Hi Fi News (in its SANE period) Studio Sound and Wireless World I am often frustrated by their brevity. I enjoy the works of Hugh and Phil Ward especially but can quite see that not all reviews can be so 'in depth'

The magazines I referred to had a sort of 'formula' They would post a manufacturers specification (and woe betide a mnfctr whose specc' was incomplete of shoddy in some way!) Now we are lucky to find a specification online and many we can are almost useless. E.G. Frequency responses with no dB references.

The equipment was then tested against said specc' and deviations commented upon. One important point was that where relevant, speakers e.g. the listening tests were always done before electrical tests so as not to 'colour' the ear of the tester. Gear was also never 'pulled apart' until ALL tests were completed.

Maybe that last still applies but I do not ever remember it being specifically stated?

I do understand that such old style reviews have to be the exception now but I do think that at least tests should be done on the current (wot most peeps are using now!) Windows OS.

Dave.