Those rackmount multitrack recorders?

[Guest]

Those rackmount multitrack recorders that are made today like JoeCo BBR-1B 24, Tascam have one too.
Are there any that have punch in/out facilities for tracking, or are they all meant for just live capture and that's it?

[Matt Houghton]

I don't think so, though could be wrong. The current RADAR might (it can run Pro Tools...). I know the JoeCo ones allow track arming at least, so you don't eat up all your storage with blank tracks.

If you go second hand, some of the older hard-disk based recorders can — eg. Alesis HD24 etc. Tascam, Fostex and Mackie had equivalent models. But not sure I'd go down that route now, since file transfers etc can be a bit of a pain.

[Mike Stranks]

If you go second hand, some of the older hard-disk based recorders can — eg. Alesis HD24 etc.... But not sure I'd go down that route now, since file transfers etc can be a bit of a pain.

Ah!

The Elf and I could tell a tale or two about trying to extract data digitally from one of those!

[The Elf]

If you go second hand, some of the older hard-disk based recorders can — eg. Alesis HD24 etc.... But not sure I'd go down that route now, since file transfers etc can be a bit of a pain.

The Elf and I could tell a tale or two about trying to extract data digitally from one of those!

We certainly could! If you're going the Alesis route I hope you have an old Windows XP computer to hand and a few long novels to read while it extracts...

[resistorman]

If you go second hand, some of the older hard-disk based recorders can — eg. Alesis HD24 etc.... But not sure I'd go down that route now, since file transfers etc can be a bit of a pain.

The Elf and I could tell a tale or two about trying to extract data digitally from one of those!

We certainly could! If you're going the Alesis route I hope you have an old Windows XP computer to hand and a few long novels to read while it extracts...

I had a firewire dongle thingy that fit on the drive that worked relatively quickly. At least compared to the default network connection!

[The Elf]

If you go second hand, some of the older hard-disk based recorders can — eg. Alesis HD24 etc.... But not sure I'd go down that route now, since file transfers etc can be a bit of a pain.

The Elf and I could tell a tale or two about trying to extract data digitally from one of those!

We certainly could! If you're going the Alesis route I hope you have an old Windows XP computer to hand and a few long novels to read while it extracts...

I had a firewire dongle thingy that fit on the drive that worked relatively quickly. At least compared to the default network connection!

That's precisely the device we are talking about! It requires Windows XP and patience.

[Guest]

ok lads, pity, I was hoping a digital mixer front end to one of these modern multitracks would make for a nice dawless system.

[The Elf]

I really don't understand why people get preoccupied with avoiding DAWs. A smart guy once said "You can hammer nails in with your fist, but the smart guy uses a hammer - it's less painful".

[Guest]

I really don't understand why people get preoccupied with avoiding DAWs. A smart guy once said "You can hammer nails in with your fist, but the smart guy uses a hammer - it's less painful".

It's really quite simple. I've been battling with Daws and their computer hosts for the last 20 years when I first gave up dedicated hardware for the new approach. At first the wonderment of editing on the fly, automation, plugins seemed like heaven.
But as the years went on so did the ££££££££££££££, endless fecking updates, endless errors, buffers errors, OS update, incompatibility this incompatibility that but despite all that do you know what topped it all?
My creativity left. When ever inspiration would strike and I was in the mood, I'd be let down by the technology. Or the temptation to check my email, open up the browser on my tool was more often than not the concentration breaker.
And the endless fix it later, never actually commit, just in case, kills creativity. And that bloody screen, god I hate it, it sucks the life out of a room. We mix with our eyes now.

So after years of frustration I made a choice this year. I dug out my old Yamaha AW4416 workstation. Something I've not used for 20 years but I kept it because I had fond memories of loving working on it.
I've done more with that machine in the last few months than I've done in years. God it's so nice to have something with a power on switch that's ready to go, it never crashes, it never needs updating. Tracking on it is just pure pleasure, I'm having fun again, I enjoy it, I look forward to working again, being creative.

I still have the Daw. It's now a tool, I switch it on only when I need to edit something or require a specific plugin, I fly the audio out via adat and back into the AW4416 and the computer is turned off. You'd be surprised how little you actually use the computer once you hand over the central task of tracking and mixing to dedicated hardware. And it just sounds better too. I've found a hybrid approach that's working.
Sadly the current workstations like Zoom live, Tascam Model desks just are not in the same league as the Yamaha AW4416 and there's no sign of Yamaha bringing it back into production. But my thinking of using one of their digital desks with a hardware multi track might have been a solution should the AW4416 expire.

So that's why. As another smart guy once said; why do I need a hammer that I can check my email on when all I want to do is hammering?

[The Elf]

I just hope you find something that works for you.

[Mixedup]

I had a firewire dongle thingy that fit on the drive that worked relatively quickly. At least compared to the default network connection!

That's precisely the device we are talking about! It requires Windows XP and patience.

2nd hand Win XP laptop with XP Pro and a Firewire port is about £25, so it's not so problematic, as long as you're prepared to maintain a machine for this purpose.

Should also be able to use HD Tools and a USB/IDE adapter on Win 7 and Win 10 if you ignore the prompts to format the drive. You can't use the hot swap caddy for that though; you need to get at the drive inside to do the transfers, which makes it more fiddly.

There's Ethernet too, though it's a v old standard on the HD24 and thus v slow. But if you're organised and not in a hurry you can leave that transferring in the background.

Depending on how you work and how long your recordings, you can also just record over ADAT in real time (on any OS). Which is what I've generally done. Though of course you need a device with three+ ADAT ports if you want to transfer all 24 channels this way. eg RME Digiface USB.

I use the HD24 rarely. But there's still something pleasant about recording with just my mixer and this, without the pale glow of a screen and all the visual distractions of a DAW. (Could never *mix* that way now though )

[The Elf]

I had a firewire dongle thingy that fit on the drive that worked relatively quickly. At least compared to the default network connection!

That's precisely the device we are talking about! It requires Windows XP and patience.

2nd hand Win XP laptop with XP Pro and a Firewire port is about £25, so it's not so problematic, as long as you're prepared to maintain a machine for this purpose.

Which is precisely what I do. But strewth...

[rha]

Do we thing there is no market for a digital multitrack recorder?

If, for example, say Behringer produced an inexpensive 8 line-in, 8 out recorder, just add ssd of your choice, that there wouldn't be enough interest to make it worthwhile? Simple as you like, to keep costs down, but with enough functionality punch in or whatever. Stick it in yr backpack to carry around.

Record tracks as you like then use it to mix with, or plug ssd into computer for more comprehensive fiddling on yr daw...

Just curious to see what folks think.

[OneWorld]

Do we thing there is no market for a digital multitrack recorder?

If, for example, say Behringer produced an inexpensive 8 line-in, 8 out recorder, just add ssd of your choice, that there wouldn't be enough interest to make it worthwhile? Simple as you like, to keep costs down, but with enough functionality punch in or whatever. Stick it in yr backpack to carry around.

Record tracks as you like then use it to mix with, or plug ssd into computer for more comprehensive fiddling on yr daw...

Just curious to see what folks think.

There is one such product, I think it is Cymatic?, I think it is a 16 track device, but with all these rack devices (as opposed to workstation multi-trackers) there is no function that allows the user to mix down to stereo.

I can never understand why Tascam scrapped the SX1 - MIDI + Audio + Mixing + Fullsize monitor all in one box. I suppose it just never sold

[OneWorld]

I really don't understand why people get preoccupied with avoiding DAWs. A smart guy once said "You can hammer nails in with your fist, but the smart guy uses a hammer - it's less painful".

I dug out my old Yamaha AW4416 workstation. Something I've not used for 20 years but I kept it because I had fond memories of loving working on it.
I've done more with that machine in the last few months than I've done in years. God it's so nice to have something with a power on switch that's ready to go, it never crashes, it never needs updating. Tracking on it is just pure pleasure, I'm having fun again, I enjoy it, I look forward to working again, being creative.

I have one under the desk, I got it out some time ago and found the same as yourself, the immediacy of it. Thing is, it is quite a lump and I have run out of space on the desk. A great piece of kit and one wonders why Yamaha haven't manufactured an updated model. I once owned a AW2400 but for some reason got on better with the AW4416

[The Elf]

Do we thing there is no market for a digital multitrack recorder?

If, for example, say Behringer produced an inexpensive 8 line-in, 8 out recorder, just add ssd of your choice, that there wouldn't be enough interest to make it worthwhile? Simple as you like, to keep costs down, but with enough functionality punch in or whatever. Stick it in yr backpack to carry around.

Record tracks as you like then use it to mix with, or plug ssd into computer for more comprehensive fiddling on yr daw...

Just curious to see what folks think.

Zoom's range includes hand helds and mixer formats that will do pretty much what you're suggesting. I've recorded gigs with my Zoom L-12, for one example, and brought the results back to Cubase. There are a number of other devices with similar abilities.

[MarkOne]

And the Zoom L20R is pretty much exactly what you are all talking about. Rack mount, 20 tracks (16+2 stereo line ins) full digital mixer and SD card recorder (with punch in, etc) easy to import to a DAW for production.

[James Perrett]

There is one such product, I think it is Cymatic?, I think it is a 16 track device, but with all these rack devices (as opposed to workstation multi-trackers) there is no function that allows the user to mix down to stereo.

The Tascam Model 16 works as a hardware multitracker with overdubs on individual tracks and there is an option to mix down to a stereo file on it. It is basically an analogue mixer with a recorder and audio interface tacked on.

To me it has quite a few flaws but then I'm not one of those people who would seriously consider using a digital multitracker. Others my find it useful. My computer setup is less fussy than the Tascam - especially now that I have my favourite setups stored as templates.

[Mike Stranks]

As we've changed tack slightly - as we usually do - I'll give a shout-out for this from Behringer:

https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/behringer-ufx1604

A nice piece of kit that does a good job. I sold mine at a tidy profit - until Evri damaged it in transit . Discontinued for a few years now, but a good piece of kit... with the caveat of course that, like the Cymatic (which I've also owned), you can't mixdown on it.

[Guest]

Do we thing there is no market for a digital multitrack recorder?

If, for example, say Behringer produced an inexpensive 8 line-in, 8 out recorder, just add ssd of your choice, that there wouldn't be enough interest to make it worthwhile? Simple as you like, to keep costs down, but with enough functionality punch in or whatever. Stick it in yr backpack to carry around.

Record tracks as you like then use it to mix with, or plug ssd into computer for more comprehensive fiddling on yr daw...

Just curious to see what folks think.

There is one such product, I think it is Cymatic?, I think it is a 16 track device, but with all these rack devices (as opposed to workstation multi-trackers) there is no function that allows the user to mix down to stereo.

I can never understand why Tascam scrapped the SX1 - MIDI + Audio + Mixing + Fullsize monitor all in one box. I suppose it just never sold

I think that and the other multitrack workstations from Yamaha, Roland, Korg and others all peaked at a time computers and daws finally became viable 20 years ago.
I bought my AW4416 in 2000 but by 2003 I was on Pro Tools digi 001. The ease of editing was what did it for me.
The workstations were the right technology a bit too late and the market trend was moving to computer daws, they were a lot more affordable.

That said, 20 years later I think there's a growing trend to move away from the screen and computers and back to something more dedicated. We see huge investment into this market from Zoom and Tascam and let's not forget Akai's MPC line, which can now integrate USB interfaces for audio recording.
My hope is this trend will continue and we'll see a worthy successor to Yamaha's AW4416. The Tascam SX1 really was an ambitious solution, right product, wrong time.

[OneWorld]

..............let's not forget Akai's MPC line, which can now integrate USB interfaces for audio recording.
My hope is this trend will continue and we'll see a worthy successor to Yamaha's AW4416. The Tascam SX1 really was an ambitious solution, right product, wrong time.

I feel we are getting tantalisingly close to the 'ideal' recorder/mixer, with the MPC X for example, but even that as far as I know does not use D2D recording of audio, and yes there is audio recording to a hard disk, but it is a bit clunky. That said the MPC X doesn't aspire to be a recorder anyway.

Also there are products such as the Tascam Model 24 which works fine along with a DAW, but no flying faders etc

We have digital mixers, that allow recorder to a greater or lesser degree, again, they are designed as mixers, with recording tagged on.

All I want for christmas is ......... an MPC X with 24 tracks of audio, with for example 8i/o audio, HDMI output to a monitor, mouse and qwerty keyboard, VSTs

But for now I guess a fast lappy, decent interface, stripped to the bone OS and a DAW stripped back to basics too - which is easy enough to do. Stick it all in a custom box/rack and hey ho, it's off to record we go

[rha]

Some nice suggestions there for things to take a closer look at, the Zoom and Tascam stuff especially.

I guess I'm guilty of dreaming of something that would be ideal for my situation at this particular time, and thinking that, obviously, lots of other people would want the same and it would be a decent seller, etc. I am not an entrepreneur or involved in the running of a business at any level above basic worker...

I think the main driver is wanting to avoid looking at a monitor and tending an operating system.

What I'd like is a basic drop-in replacement for a tape recorder or one of the old Alesis or Fostex units. Multiple outputs to run back to a mixing desk for live fiddling with. But it's just for fun and not work, and I can certainly see how this comes off second best to a DAW in almost every circumstance. Still, couldn't be that expensive to produce these days?

[Mike Stranks]

At the 'cheap(ish) and cheerful' (but still competent) end of the market Zoom are still producing the R16 and R24.

These cover the majority of the bases that rha has requested.

An R16 was my first step into the world of standalone multitracks... mainly used for location capture, but I did attempt a rough 'n' ready mix on it once...

[OneWorld]

At the 'cheap(ish) and cheerful' (but still competent) end of the market Zoom are still producing the R16 and R24.

These cover the majority of the bases that rha has requested.

An R16 was my first step into the world of standalone multitracks... mainly used for location capture, but I did attempt a rough 'n' ready mix on it once...

One thing I'd be aware of with the Zoom 'R' range - no midi !