Volume plugin with MIDI Learn or CC7 support (NOT Bluecat!)?

[ulrichburke]

Dear Anyone.

I'm HOPING I've not posted this here before and forgotten, many apologies if I have, I don't know how to find my old posts here. Tried searching on my user name and got zilch, dunno what else to try. Anyway. Here's the prob.

I've just got Kontakt 6. Legal copy. Built a multi with it - 3 instruments EQ'd and shaped into One Unified Sound. So of course the output's to one MIDI channel - play one note on the MIDI channel and you get the whole Bee-YOO-tifully(!) unified sound. Thing IS...

When you want to make the sound louder or quieter, Kontakt doesn't let you turn it up and down as One Sound. Instead it tries to apply the CC7 number to ALL the internal sounds. So if one was set on - say - 15 and another on 25 and you sent a CC7 of 40 to the MULTI, it would change EACH of the instruments making up the multi to 40, not turn up the multi AS A WHOLE to 40. I want to be able to turn the whole multi up exactly like turning up a CD player (or down!) When you turn up a CD player, you're not changing the band's instruments' settings, you're just making the whole thing louder.

Can't find a way to make that happen in Kontakt. It's got sliders but I don't think you can automate them. Same with the main volume control. (If anyone knows how to automate the sliders above the little keyboard, PLEASE tell me, Kontakt won't let you drag'n'drop CC7 onto them, same with the main volume control.) So I need SOMETHING with CC7/MIDI Learn on it to use as an insert effect so I can turn Kontakt multis up and down.

I know of Bluecat but it's well dodgy. It's fine - until it decides to change CC numbers and MIDI channel settings all by itself, with no warning, for no reason I can find. Sometimes the settings stick. Sometimes they change every few notes. Got zero idea why. Done GOOGLE searches using every parameter I can think of - can't find anything with CC7/MIDI learn out there (that's a VST plugin, like Bluecat, only working properly!) I don't want to have to start loading all the sounds individually into my DAW and grouping/controlling them from there because hell, that's Kontakt's job! Why should I have to use a ton of extra MIDI channels just because the idiots who built Kontakt forgot to make the sliders automatable (doesn't that make the sliders rather pointless?)

There's GOTTA be SOMETHING with CC7/MIDI learn out there as a volume (Or GAIN, that'd do!) Control that works properly, hasn't there? All suggestions will be tried. Last sentence, just to stop the obvious question....

I'm disabled with a notation package DAW, Quick Score Elite Level 2. It works great, it's a lot like Dorico. But it uses CC commands for EVERYTHING - it sends them out to the VSTs. I've got a little bunch of other VSTs I can't use cos they don't understand CC7 either (WHY don't the designers let them understand CC commands!?!) And you'd think there'd be LOADS of volume control knobs out there using CC - seems such a simple, logical thing. Can't find one (BC don't count!) Nooo, right now I don't want to 'upgrade' to a 'more modern DAW', took me long enough to learn Quick Score Elite, I'd use Dorico but it's £500!!! And I spent 7 months battling Reaper, during which time I got virtually nothing written. Until I find SOME Video that walks me through that thing, I'm banning it!

Last sentence - if anyone understands WHY Blue Cat randomly changes MIDI channels and/or CC settings and knows how to stop it DOING that, they'd have a friend for life!!

Yours baffledly

Chris.

[Drew Stephenson]

Hi Chris, you could try Kilohearts Gain: https://kilohearts.com/products/gain
It's one of their free plugins (the installer gives you the option of downloading the complete set of basics or deselecting whatever you don't need). As far as I can see it should be midi controllable (it is in Reaper) but that may depend on your DAW.

[The Elf]

How about trying MIDI CC11 into Kontakt? Not sure how it is implemented in Kontakt, but if done properly that should preserve your relative volume settings.

[RichardT]

Hi Chris,

Here are a couple of suggestions. I hope one of the them applies to your situation!

Using Kontakt in your notation package, use volume automation to control the level of the channel that Kontakt is on. This does not affect the settings inside Kontakt, but instead changes the track fader level and hence the overall volume of Kontakt.

If you can't automate the faders then create three tracks with Kontakt on, each containing one instrument, and use CC automation on each of them separately. This would involve duplicating the notation onto two more tracks - but if you just want a particular sound and you're not worried about printing out a score, that should work ok.

I almost always only have one instrument in each instance of Kontakt precisely so that I can control them all separately. In terms of a performance hit, it's not large. In your situation, that's what I'd do.

I've tried working with multis and found the lack of control over the individual instruments was too much to accept, in spite of the supposed advantages.

I even tried Unify (which is similar to Bluecat) to try to get the best of both worlds, but the extra complexity was just not worth it.

[RichardT]

A volume plugin could work, but I’m not sure if they respond to CCs - I would expect them to respond to their own automation parameters.

[Drew Stephenson]

A volume plugin could work, but I’m not sure if they respond to CCs - I would expect them to respond to their own automation parameters.

Think it depends on the DAW and plugin. I have all manner of things running of CCs in Reaper.

[ulrichburke]

Dear Richard T.

"Using Kontakt in your notation package, use volume automation to control the level of the channel that Kontakt is on. This does not affect the settings inside Kontakt, but instead changes the track fader level and hence the overall volume of Kontakt."

That. Is. EXACTLY what I want to do. But you can't automate ANYTHING if it doesn't respond to CC7 because CC7 is volume control - CC numbers are 'Control Change' numbers - and if the thing's not responding properly to CC7, you can't control-change it by definition. (Sorry if that sounds a tad frustrated, been batting my head against this one awhile now!) Automation works, as far as I know, BY CC numbers - it's just it uses 'em in the background and you don't realise they're there.

So I use CC7. My sliders move up and down. And they send CC7 commands to Kontakt. BUT - Kontakt doesn't use the commands right. It changes all the INTERNAL instrument settings, not just the overall volume with no internal settings changes, which is what would be nice!

When Blue Cat works, everything works like a dream. The overall volume changes perfectly, no internal instrument volume change, bliss. But Blue Cat's got a bug - its settings don't STAY set! They randomly change, for no apparent reason. I've told them about this and gotten no response yet. But as I know the concept works, I was just wondering if there was anything out there similar to Blue Cat that didn't have this random-settings-change problem. I mean the problem MIGHT be to do with Quick Score Elite - I honestly dunno - I've not got anything other than Blue Cat to test the theory on!

If I had something else with MIDI learn/CC7 and the settings randomly changed, fair enough, probably Quick Score Elite's to blame. But I can't find anything else.

Ignorant question. How are you guys automating volume if not by using automation curves - and don't those automation curves use CC commands to send the volume values to the VSTs (I know nada about Logic AUs, sorry!)

Yours somewhat baffledly

Chris.

[ulrichburke]

Sorry, Richard T, just read your other post - "A volume plug-in could work, but I don't know if they use CC commands or not" (or words to that effect, can't read it while I'm typing this.)

PLEASE, with cherries and whipped cream on top, TELL ME THE NAMES of a few volume plug-ins. I cannot find any anywhere nohow. They seem not to exist. They are rarer than hairs on the top of my head! I'll happily test them for CC7 compliance - but I can't find any TO test!

What volume plugins do you - or any of you others - know? Feel free to chuck hundreds of names at me - I can't find any anywhere. (I've possibly seen the names and not realised they did volume control.) Only proviso is - they have to be VST2s, not VST3s or AUs.

All will be tested, I promise you!

Yours respectfully (again)

Chris.

[RichardT]

Dear Richard T.

"Using Kontakt in your notation package, use volume automation to control the level of the channel that Kontakt is on. This does not affect the settings inside Kontakt, but instead changes the track fader level and hence the overall volume of Kontakt."

That. Is. EXACTLY what I want to do. But you can't automate ANYTHING if it doesn't respond to CC7 because CC7 is volume control - CC numbers are 'Control Change' numbers - and if the thing's not responding properly to CC7, you can't control-change it by definition. (Sorry if that sounds a tad frustrated, been batting my head against this one awhile now!) Automation works, as far as I know, BY CC numbers - it's just it uses 'em in the background and you don't realise they're there.

So I use CC7. My sliders move up and down. And they send CC7 commands to Kontakt. BUT - Kontakt doesn't use the commands right. It changes all the INTERNAL instrument settings, not just the overall volume with no internal settings changes, which is what would be nice!

When Blue Cat works, everything works like a dream. The overall volume changes perfectly, no internal instrument volume change, bliss. But Blue Cat's got a bug - its settings don't STAY set! They randomly change, for no apparent reason. I've told them about this and gotten no response yet. But as I know the concept works, I was just wondering if there was anything out there similar to Blue Cat that didn't have this random-settings-change problem. I mean the problem MIGHT be to do with Quick Score Elite - I honestly dunno - I've not got anything other than Blue Cat to test the theory on!

If I had something else with MIDI learn/CC7 and the settings randomly changed, fair enough, probably Quick Score Elite's to blame. But I can't find anything else.

Ignorant question. How are you guys automating volume if not by using automation curves - and don't those automation curves use CC commands to send the volume values to the VSTs (I know nada about Logic AUs, sorry!)

Yours somewhat baffledly

Chris.

It doesn’t sound right that automating the faders also sends midi cc messages to the VST instrument. That’s very confusing. In Cubase at least, automating the channel audio levels is not done with midi cc commands.

I’ll have a look into your software a bit in the next few days and see If I find something to help.

[sonics]

I apologise if this is unhelpful (I didn't read the full thread), but Kontakt will of course respond to volume information on different channels.

If that doesn't work for you, all MeldaProduction plugins can be MIDI CC controlled. Just choose one and get gaining! Perhaps the free MAGC?
There's even an explanatory video.

[ulrichburke]

Dear Sonics.

Thanks - didn't know about Melda - will try. Just a question....

If you've got Kontakt, set up a MULTI. (Of course you don't have to do this, this is just what I've been trying to do.) Merge the sounds into one composite sound - mine was flute'n'voice which became a lovely, slightly unearthly flute sound. Then try to turn your new composite instrument louder and softer without the settings of the internal sounds changing. Exactly like turning a CD up and down, basically.

When I try to do that in Kontakt 6, by sending CC7 to the MIDI channel the MULTI's on (of course I've got all the instruments on the same MIDI channel as they're one composite sound) the volume of the MULTI stays the same but the volume settings of the INTERNAL INSTRUMENTS that comprise the MULTI change. So of course your composite sound's busted - the sound settings have all been altered by the CC7 command.

So I turn off the internal Kontakt instrument settings that says something along the lines of 'Don't accept CC7 changes' (I don't have Kontakt open right now) I do that with all the instruments making up the multi. And then the internal settings don't change, true - but neither does the overall volume setting. NOTHING changes despite you sending CC7 commands to it.

Now Kontakt's got a list of CC commands in its left-hand window that it says can be drag'n'dropped onto all sliders. THAT ONLY WORKS ON THE SLIDERS THAT ARE CONTROLS ON THE ACTUAL INSTRUMENTS. It does NOT work on the volume sliders above the little keyboard, or any of the main volume controls. So you hit a situation where all the controls you DON'T want to change are changing (unless you turn the internal CC commands off like I said above) and you can't make any of the ones you DO want to change, change!

How people get round this is by opening the instruments in Kontakt, putting each one on a different MIDI channel and controlling them individually from their DAW (so I read on another forum.) But that DOES mean you can't use MULTIS to create composite instruments - you're using your DAW to create the multiple instrument by putting each Kontakt sound on a separate MIDI channel and grouping them in the DAW. Which means the DAW's having to do all the work the KONTAKT Multi SHOULD be doing, just because you can't automate the front end of the KONTAKT multi!

Which makes Kontakt multis utterly pointless (as the point of a multi is to let you create a unified sound, surely.) Having a volume control as an insert in the MIDI channel in your DAW is a great workaround - it turns the volume up and down via the MULTI's MIDI channel. Except I can't find one!

I'll try the Melda one out though - never heard of it. And I'll try out anything anyone else suggest (in order to make me SHURRUP!!)

Yours respectfully

Chris.