Heavy Metal Drums - are they usually sampled?

[jtcoops]

I've been lumped with a task of mixing down a metal band. Have managed to get guitars and vocals sounding great, but struggling with the drums.

The band want the kick to sound more clicky and the snare more crack and toppy.

They've given me a host of example tracks and to my ears there are drum machines/samples at work.

One of them is here

Is it even remotely possible to get a recorded kick drum to sound like this? I've got drumagog, and Fairview Rock Drums gog files, but nothing in my arsenel even comes close. If I'm competing with a drum machine though I'm wasting my time even trying.

Anyone had any experience with metal drummers and getting the signature metal sound right?

[Dan Clark]

Convert the audio to midi using Logic's built in function, or the equivalent of whatever DAW you use, then use samples. Modern metal relies heavily on triggering drums nowadays, I think you'll struggle to match the sound mixing normally.

[jtcoops]

Hmm, I use Cubase SX - can wav be converted to midi in Cubase, or is it a Logic speciality? - tried help and google but google just comes back to using Logic to do the deed.

[Wease]

..doesn't drumagog "emit" a midi file if required?? - cause thats how i'd do it

or can you import your own samples??? - if so - then there are a number of drum sample sites where one could purchase said "Klicky Kick" metal sample or similar (i've always plugged Zukan's samplecraze in these circumstances - good and cheap!!)

[Jack Ruston]

Its all about choosing the right samples, blending them in the right amounts with each other and with the existing recording, placing them EXACTLY so that they're in phase with the existing (ie not with midi unless you go through and manually align every hit) and then using alternating samples so that the hits dont sound so uniform.

J

[Tomás Mulcahy]

not with midi unless you go through and manually align every hit

Or just use Logic's audio to MIDI. This function has been in Logic for years. It's totally accurate, no editing of position required. You will have to remove a few spurious notes (literally, a few!), but it gives utterly precise triggering with dynamics preserved. Far better than anything you can do in PT with any of the plugins.

[Jack Ruston]

Well ok lets assume that it's accurate...it doesn't take into account the nature of the sample you're triggering in relation to the existing. In other words, just becuase the two samples trigger at the same time, doesn't mean they're in phase.

J

[jtcoops]

Comes back to the point I'm using Cubase, on a PC. Logic may well be a much better application for this sort of thing, but its Mac only, and for that reason alone is of no use to me. Sadly.

I'll see if I can achieve it with Drumagog. Problem with the gog is it struggles to keep up with the rapid double kicking. Might try Zukons downloads though, as I've used my own samples in Drumagog in the past and its been fairly successful. If it gets me half way there, its closer than I am at the moment.

Amuses me that the drummer in the band I'm mixing for bought brand new skins for his entire kit the day before recording, and its now looking like his kit will be in the background to a set of samples.

[Scramble]

Forget Logic, you've got Cubase and Drumagog, use those. But you'll have to buy Steven Slate Drums and Supersonic Samples (the latter is on special, it's very good). Fairview won't cut it for metal. Get the band to pay if possible -- otherwise they're living in dreamland!

Even with these tools it's still a very difficult art to getting to the right sounds and blends -- and don't think you'll just be able to copy another band's sounds, unless you're very experienced and very good. Anyone who thinks the computer does it all for you these days has never tried serious drum replacement!

(I've found that kick samples don't layer very well with the original kick, due to phase problems, so I usually go for outright replacement, but sampled and original snares mix together fine.

[Scramble]

For rapid hits to trigger every time in Drumagog you need to decrease the resolution to as low as possible, and if necessary set the latency slider to the "higher accuracy" end.

If that doesn't work copy your track, and draw on them so that one plays the left kick and one plays the right. Insert a separate instance of Drumagog on both tracks.

(There are various other ruses I've come up with to make sure Drumagog always triggers correctly, although they can be time-consuming.)

[The Korff]

Wotcha mate,

Yeah, that sample doesn't sound too natural... but more than anything, I think it's the (naturally or otherwise) impeccable timing that gives it that feel. Do the drums you're mixing have that quality? Because if they don't, giving them that kind of presence will only do BAD THINGS (like make the drummer sound as crap as he or she really is).

If the playing is that tight, but the tonality isn't quite what you're looking for, then count yourself bleedin' lucky that the above (audio-to-MIDI/drum replacement) ideas might work! If it's not though, well... giving the kicks that much prominence in the mix might offend the drummer a bit! In which case, I'd be tempted to play them down a little...

Oh, and have you got/tried a transient designer? In combination with a lot of EQ?

Cheers!

Chris

[Scramble]

Agree with Korff. Most of it still comes down to the drummer.

Try Stillwell's Transient Designer for more attack.

The idea that you can turn an average-quality low-budget drum recording into something that sounds like that clip without using samples or an expensive producer is, er, rather ambitious.

[Yacco]

placing them EXACTLY so that they're in phase with the existing

Excuse my ignorance, but if they're two different waveforms with different frequencies I don't see how they would be in phase?

[Jack Ruston]

Well it's a question of definition and vernacular. Clearly for two signals to be perfectly in phase they need to be identical. But as engineers we use the term rather loosely to refer to anything that positively or negatively reinforces. It's absolutely possible (and indeed probable if they're not aligned) for one drum sample to destructively interfere with another. We see this all the time with both kicks and snares. It's one of the reasons why some samples just never play nicely together with their transients aligned. Obviously you also need to ensure that they don't need a polarity inversion.

You are not alone in your assumption. Unfortunately a lot of people get taught about phase by people with a lot of scientific knowledge and rather less real world experience.

Try it out.

[Scramble]

>It's absolutely possible (and indeed probable if they're not aligned) for one drum sample to destructively interfere with another. We see this all the time with both kicks and snares.

Completely agree with this.

[The Elf]

I go through this pain on a regular basis, because I work with rock and variants. Drumagog will do a fantastic job if you are careful with the settings. I do quite a lot of work on the raw tracks (heavy limiting/compression) before passing the signal into Drumagog to give it a better chance of picking up clean transients. I've not used a transient designer, but it sounds ideal for both cleaning up for Drumagog and maybe even rescuing the original sound - I'll admit it's on my buying list.

But... Drumagog will not do the whole job for you, and you'll need to resort to some manual editing. I find it's just a case of rolling up the sleeves and getting stuck in. A couple of hours later you'll have it nailed and feel better about yourself and the world in general.

There's a lot to be said for adding as little as you need and layering a carefully edited transient over the original audio, rather than replacing, it - but I'll admit I usually end up replacing it whole.

And I've used Logic's audio to MIDI - it's good, but it's certainly no magic bullet. In many ways I believe Drumagog does a better job.

I actually used to have a lot of success running audio back out to an Alesis D4 - these days I'm seriously considering giving it another try.

[Wigworld]

A transient plug-in might help - try this one: http://www.digitalfishphones.com/main.php?item=2&subItem=4

[Jack Ruston]

I find it's just a case of rolling up the sleeves and getting stuck in. A couple of hours later you'll have it nailed

Exactly.

Everybody looks for a quick fix but the reality is that these records are made by painstakingly editing drums and aligning samples. It's meticulous and time consuming. Often you end up with a number of samples on each hit, each with an alternate hit of the same thing which you then need to go through and alternately mute or whatever. You might have mediums with alternates too for 'building' fills.

NB...if you have a drummer who plays a lot of ghost notes on the snare or is very dynamic/does lots of little tripletty type things or off beat half hit snares etc etc you just cant get samples to work. It's too difficult to find enough variation around a drum that works with your existing. You could possibly record your own. The problem is that it's so fiddly to place the right ones in the right places that by the time you've spent days getting that right you lose perspective on whether the whole thing works...and of course the client wont pay you to do that. Better to do it again. Luckily the sort of music that benefits from samples tends to be fairly hard hitting.

J

[planetnine]

I'll see if I can achieve it with Drumagog. Problem with the gog is it struggles to keep up with the rapid double kicking. Might try Zukons downloads though, as I've used my own samples in Drumagog in the past and its been fairly successful. If it gets me half way there, its closer than I am at the moment.

have you tried a little gating (or even a lot) on the kick sounds to help Drumagog recognise the individual beats? Copy the kick track and gate this copy to use as the feed to Drumagog.

Amuses me that the drummer in the band I'm mixing for bought brand new skins for his entire kit the day before recording, and its now looking like his kit will be in the background to a set of samples.

heh, as Dan says above some modern metal really relies on sample layering. I mix metal bands live and triggered samples are becoming commonplace, especially on kick. Sometimes the best sound on kicks is mostly the drummers sample feed, the miked kick won't mix or stand up to the sample...

>

[Doublehelix]

You have all the answers you need already in this thread. Sample replacement is the answer here, and lots of editing! If you are using PT, you can also use Elastic Audio to better time the machine gun bass drum hits, if not, Melodyne might work depending on the bleed issues.

Once you have the timing down, Drumagog is a decent solution if you have the right samples.

A transient plug-in might help - try this one: http://www.digitalfishphones.com/main.php?item=2&subItem=4

Actually, as good as this plugin sounds, it does not report its latency to the host DAW, and therefore cannot be used with ADC (Automatic Delay Compensation). Sascha's latest ventures are with Magix and Samplitude where he re-wrote the Dominion plugin with more modern features, and now has the ability to work with ADC.

Too bad really, as those older Digital Fish Phone plugs all sound great, and for the price, (free!), they are a real steal!

[jtcoops]

Wow

Thanks for all the responses.

I actually stumbled on the Dominion plug in late last night and spent some hours today playing around with it - and have actually had a decent result with it, in the signal chain after Drumagog. Not quite the same as sample replacement with a slappy clicky kick but getting close.

I like the idea of the Steven Slate drumagog suite but its out of my price range for the moment. Still its enough to know that I'm not being inadequate by not being able to get the sound purely by EQ and compression.

Will experiment some more tomorrow with fresh ears.

[Scramble]

>I like the idea of the Steven Slate drumagog suite but its out of my price range for the moment.

Then get Supersonic Samples, currently only $99. It's as good, if not better, than Slate.

If you can't even afford that then frankly I don't think your bands stand much of a chance against the competition -- try to convince them that it's in their interest to pay for it.

[Koston]

If you're gonna do heavy metal (especially fast stuff) in the future, invest in a set of triggers. Should save a fair bit of work to have the MIDI data recorded accurately along with audio right from the start.

[Jack Ruston]

Well the problem with triggers is that midi interfaces are inaccurate. So the triggers are always subject to error.

[Koston]

Hm, good point, definetely something to look further into. This google hit seemed curious at least:

http://stretta.blogspot.com/2007/07/daw-midi-timing-redux_25.html