Sibilance in Mixing and Mastering for Vinyl

[pja1]

Is it more important to control sibilance when mixing/mastering for vinyl? Do you have any advice on controlling this?

[Hugh Robjohns]

No.

A good sounding mix is a good sounding mix.

A mix with uncontrolled sibilance is not a good sounding mix.

The specialist process of cutting a disc for vinyl production incorporates specific tools for controlling HF energy should the cutter be at risk from a poor mix.

[James Perrett]

I'm going to disagree with Hugh slightly here (based on very limited experience of attended cutting sessions and more extensive experience of comparing vinyl production masters with original mixes) and say that it is slightly more important to take sibilance and high frequency energy into account when creating vinyl pre-masters. The high frequencies on a vinyl production master tape are often curtailed compared to those on the original mix.

A good vinyl mastering engineer will know the capabilities of their cutter head and will adjust the high frequencies to suit - sometimes by manually changing eq settings when sibilance happens while allowing everything else through. However, these days a fair bit of work goes through GZ's semi-automated DMM systems in the Czech Republic where they may not take such individual care and just turn the level of the master down so that nothing exceeds the capability of their cutter heads. GZ can produce good work if you recognise their limitations and work around them.

[Aled Hughes]

I have to admit this whole 'specialized mastering for vinyl' seems a bit odd to me.

With the exception of fairly rare occurrences such as a lot of low-frequency stereo information, a good sensible mix/master should work ok for digital or vinyl.

We have people exclaiming "vinyl sounds better!", yet they're listening to a different master! Usually a more dynamic master with sensible levels, which usually sounds better. And surely if the vinyl master sounds better, that same one should be used for the digital release too?

It's digital's tolerance to over-compression and brightness that allows us to push digital masters beyond what works on vinyl... and usually it isn't for the better.

So... perhaps with a few exceptions, if you find you need to make a separate master for vinyl, maybe the original master could have been better in the first place?

[Hugh Robjohns]

I'm going to disagree with Hugh slightly here...

There is no disagreement, James, but I can see my brevity may have left room for confusion.

I'm assuming the OP is not cutting his own disc, but is just sending or taking a mix master to someone who will.

In which case, he just needs to send or take a good mix.

It is true that the vinyl mastering process is more sensitive to HF energy than other release formats, but dealing with that is something best left to the disc cutting engineer who has the knowledge, experience and tools to deal with it appropriately.

Trying to second-guess the appropriate treatment without specific knowledge and experience is likely to make matters worse, not better in my view.

So I would suggest the OP should just concentrate on making the mix as good as possible.

If there is a sibilance problem then resolve it in the mix!

But if the mix sounds good already, don't damage it with HF EQ or compression in an effort to make things easier for disc cutting. Leave that to the expert!

[James Perrett]

It is true that the vinyl mastering process is more sensitive to HF energy than other release formats, but dealing with that is something best left to the disc cutting engineer who has the knowledge, experience and tools to deal with it appropriately.

Trying to second-guess the appropriate treatment without specific knowledge and experience is likely to make matters worse, not better in my view.

So I would suggest the OP should just concentrate on making the mix as good as possible.

If there is a sibilance problem then resolve it in the mix!

But if the mix sounds good already, don't damage it with HF EQ or compression in an effort to make things easier for disc cutting. Leave that to the expert!

Yes, I think we are in agreement that an experienced set of ears is required somewhere in the process who can translate that mix into something that will work on vinyl. Blindly applying rules that you have read about on the Internet is likely to lead to disappointment.

If the project has the budget for it, I would strongly recommend going along to see your record being cut. The cutting engineer can give you feedback on how your mix translates to vinyl and you can both discuss any issues that might arise.

The biggest problem arises when you are sending your work to somewhere like GZ where you won't be able to talk to the cutting engineer. Much of my work goes to them and my philosophy is to keep high frequencies consistent so that there are no sibilant peaks. I don't deliberately limit high frequencies or do any vinyl specific bass processing and the results usually turn out fine.

[tea for two]

I still have yet to try Tokyo Dawn SimuLathe.
https://www.tokyodawn.net/tdr-simulathe-ref/
Demo download available.
Chosen in 2023 SoS Gear of the Year by Hugh :
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/2023-gear-year
Review :
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/to ... -simulathe

[Hugh Robjohns]

Yes, I was going to suggest SimulLathe to identify any potential cutting issues before an unattended cut.

[ajay_m]

In fact vinyl mastering can get quite complex. The outer groove velocity is nearly three times greater than the inner groove velocity and dynamic range and distortion are not constant across the surface. Inner groove distortion is a real problem with vinyl and putting material with less dynamic range towards the centre of the platter will mitigate this.
Higher end cartridges use elliptical stylii which track more precisely than a spherical stylus but the angle at which the stylus engages with the groove varies across the surface (tracking error) and then some cartridges are more compliant than others and mastering has to take all this into account. Thankfully most modern gear has done away with those terrible ceramic cartridges with 5 gram tracking weight that chewed out records after a few plays.

[Dynamic Mike]

https://teenage.engineering/products/po-80

This appears to come with it's own mastering tools if you fancy cutting your own vinyl!