clarification about using intervals for songwriting

[hjxdhxn]

Not a musician, just interested in music theory from a kind of mathmatical standpoint. Most of the theory I've been learning does seem to be from the perspective of guitar though.

I was reading about using intervals to write music, ie. this interval is sad, this interval is happy, etc. Whether or not that's accurate is irrelevant; just pretend that someone wants to use, for example, a minor third and a perfect fifth in progression to achieve a certain effect. Do the third and fifth in this context refer to anything that is three or seven semitones (respectively) up or down from the preceding note, or does it mean the specific (flat)third and fifth of the key?

How do you know what someone means when they're talking about using intervals for composing?

[BWC]

Most often, referenced to the key, but if someone said, for example, "...then I go up a fourth, then up another fourth..." I'd take that as "from the preceding note". In your example, I'd take it as "from the key".

[RichardT]

I think that's exactly right.

[Sam Spoons]

IMHO theory is useful to explain what you did rather than to tell you what to do. It's useful to exclude things (certain intervals don't sound good together) but if we all composed based purely on theory we'd all be writing the same music.

[BWC]

IMHO theory is useful to explain what you did rather than to tell you what to do.

Yes, I agree, but a better understanding of what you did (or what someone else did), better informs your decisions about what you do next.

That's why I always say "explanations, not rules". Only rules would lead to us all writing the same music, explanations just give us a better understanding of the "vocabulary".

[hjxdhxn]

Most often, referenced to the key, but if someone said, for example, "...then I go up a fourth, then up another fourth..." I'd take that as "from the preceding note". In your example, I'd take it as "from the key".

Thank you! I posted this question a million places and you're the only person that was able to actually give me an answer! Total lifesaver, I thought I was going crazy. If you have any other example context clues I could use to tell what people mean, that would be awesome, haha.

I've seen people say things like "a minor third feels tense and sad" (just to pick a random interval and effect) and I couldn't figure out if they meant going up or down by three semitones always has that effect, or if they were talking about going from the root to the minor third of the key.

[BWC]

I've seen people say things like "a minor third feels tense and sad" (just to pick a random interval and effect) and I couldn't figure out if they meant going up or down by three semitones always has that effect, or if they were talking about going from the root to the minor third of the key.

...or together, at the same time? This is where learning to play an instrument while learning the theory is helpful. The math is interesting, but it's not the point of music, is it? Looking at it only from a mathematical point of view will limit your ability to easily understand many musical concepts. From, "a minor third feels tense and sad", I think of a note and its minor third played at the same time, for example.

Music theory is just a "convenience" for communication, collaboration, and understanding purposes. ...and is different in different parts of the world. It can ALL be reduced purely to math (like anything ultimately), but I don't know if it can really be understood purely from the math.

Thank you! I posted this question a million places and you're the only person that was able to actually give me an answer! Total lifesaver, I thought I was going crazy. If you have any other example context clues I could use to tell what people mean, that would be awesome, haha.

You're welcome, but I suspect the reason you've had difficulties getting an answer is, as you've already worked out, context matters.

[Sam Spoons]

IMHO theory is useful to explain what you did rather than to tell you what to do.

Yes, I agree, but a better understanding of what you did (or what someone else did), better informs your decisions about what you do next.

That's why I always say "explanations, not rules". Only rules would lead to us all writing the same music, explanations just give us a better understanding of the "vocabulary".

Yes, good point well made.

I've seen people say things like "a minor third feels tense and sad" (just to pick a random interval and effect) and I couldn't figure out if they meant going up or down by three semitones always has that effect, or if they were talking about going from the root to the minor third of the key.

Technically an interval is an interval but a minor third up (for example) forms the essence of a minor chord only if the lower note is the root. This leads to interesting harmonic choices (play a m3rd down and it's either a 6th, the root of a new minor chord, or various other things. For myself I'm not sure how useful it is to use intervals to describe melody (I'm predominantly an ear player) but when analysing chords and harmony OTOH they is very useful and understanding how they relate to each other is the key. As BCW says, context is important.

[OneWorld]

IMHO theory is useful to explain what you did rather than to tell you what to do.

Yes, I agree, but a better understanding of what you did (or what someone else did), better informs your decisions about what you do next.

That's why I always say "explanations, not rules". Only rules would lead to us all writing the same music, explanations just give us a better understanding of the "vocabulary".

Yes, good point well made.

I've seen people say things like "a minor third feels tense and sad" (just to pick a random interval and effect) and I couldn't figure out if they meant going up or down by three semitones always has that effect, or if they were talking about going from the root to the minor third of the key.

Technically an interval is an interval but a minor third up (for example) forms the essence of a minor chord only if the lower note is the root. This leads to interesting harmonic choices (play a m3rd down and it's either a 6th, the root of a new minor chord, or various other things. For myself I'm not sure how useful it is to use intervals to describe melody (I'm predominantly an ear player) but when analysing chords and harmony OTOH they is very useful and understanding how they relate to each other is the key. As BCW says, context is important.

Yes it is like spoken/written language, what comes before and after a word gives it context. Taking a single word in isolation, except maybe an imperative, can convey all manner of meanings and in music the same applies, invert the notes and a different chord pops out, that's what I find the 'intellectual' (no I haven't been at the Christmas Brandy - yet) challenge of harmony and the ambiguity of it all.

Harmony? if I sold my music would I have Harmoney coming my way?

[merlyn]

I was reading about using intervals to write music, ie. this interval is sad, this interval is happy, etc. Whether or not that's accurate is irrelevant; just pretend that someone wants to use, for example, a minor third and a perfect fifth in progression to achieve a certain effect. Do the third and fifth in this context refer to anything that is three or seven semitones (respectively) up or down from the preceding note, or does it mean the specific (flat)third and fifth of the key?

The interval of a minor third is always three semitones. The interval of a perfect fifth is always seven semitones. When talking about intervals we are talking about a two note structure, not something relative to a key.

Two notes -- interval
Three notes -- triad
Four notes -- seventh chord
Five notes -- pentatonic scale
Six notes -- hexatonic scale
Seven notes -- major scale and major key

So it's not until we have seven notes that we have a key. Including a unison there are seven intervals from the tonic in a key. But if we use a note other than the tonic, a key contains all twelve intervals within an octave. Using C major :

unison -- C - C
minor second -- B - C
major second -- C - D
minor third -- A - C
major third -- C - E
perfect fourth -- C - F
diminished fifth -- B - F
perfect fifth -- C - G
minor sixth -- A - F
major sixth -- C - A
minor seventh -- G - F
major seventh -- C - B

[tacitus]

Deryck Cooke’s “The Language of Music” is an excellent guide to why music has particular emotions connected with intervals/chords.

Easy to pick up used. Lots of examples from classics to pop (though not all that recent; the point is still made though).

[BWC]

...
Two notes -- interval
Three notes -- triad
...

Interval -- the distance between two notes
Two notes -- dyad

[cnadmacana]

also keep in mind that a minor third up is not always the same minor third up, it has a relationship with the harmony (i.e. the other notes playing simultaneously). consider playing E-G interval over C major and B minor respectively and listen how the same interval sits differently in each tonality. If you go further, you can say that E-G over C major is the major 3rd going to the perfect 5th, whereas in B minor it's the perfect 4th going to the minor 6th.

[alexis]

also keep in mind that a minor third up is not always the same minor third up, it has a relationship with the harmony (i.e. the other notes playing simultaneously). consider playing E-G interval over C major and B minor respectively and listen how the same interval sits differently in each tonality. If you go further, you can say that E-G over C major is the major 3rd going to the perfect 5th, whereas in B minor it's the perfect 4th going to the minor 6th.

I love this, thank you cnadmacana!

[merlyn]

... If you go further, you can say that E-G over C major is the major 3rd going to the perfect 5th, whereas in B minor it's the perfect 4th going to the minor 6th.

To me an interval is two notes floating free in sonic space. To make a distinction between an interval and a scale degree, I would use numbers for scale degrees. So using the example of E - G, that is always the interval of a minor third. In C it would be 3 - 5. In Bm it would be 4 - b6.

Numbers could also be used to specify notes relative to the root of the current chord. Context should make this clear.

In a major key there are four minor thirds. 2 - 4, 3 - 5, 6 - 8, 7 - 9.

[Exalted Wombat]

Intervals are absolute. C to Eb is a minor third, whether the context is the first and third notes of a C minor scale or the third and fifth notes of an Ab major scale. (Or it could be a few other things too.)

The emotional effect can depend on context though. The first one I mentioned will sound 'sad'. The second one probably won't.