mid/side mic question

[rggillespie]

I'm recording my acoustic mid/side but I'm a little puzzled with the results. I'm using my 818 in cardioid as the centre and my reslo ribbon as figure of 8 set at 90 degrees. They are one on top of the other and after recording I'm duplicating a reslo track and flipping the polarity. I'm then panning the 2 reslo tracks 100% left and 100% right in reaper. Is this the correct method? When I flip the polarity back it sounds much louder and more clear? I read an article by Zukan suggest using a Voxengo plugin. So I'm just wondering if I'm doing it correctly. Am I right thinking there is mid/side recording and then there seems to be mid side options in the mixing stage as well. They are different things are they? I'm recording a single voice and acoustic guitar so its kind of mono really, I'm trying to have the guitar either side of voice in the middle. Any tips much appreciated!

[Sam Spoons]

Are you recording guitar and voice simultaneously? Mid/Sides produces a stereo signal that will sum to mono perfectly but I'm not sure how you are hoping to get the guitar out of the centre using it?

[Hugh Robjohns]

I'm recording my acoustic mid/side but I'm a little puzzled with the results. I'm using my 818 in cardioid as the centre and my reslo ribbon as figure of 8 set at 90 degrees. They are one on top of the other and after recording I'm duplicating a reslo track and flipping the polarity. I'm then panning the 2 reslo tracks 100% left and 100% right in reaper. Is this the correct method?

It's the old school technique. These days it is much easier to use an M-S plugin like Voxengo's MSED which is free and excellent:

https://www.voxengo.com/product/msed/

Create a stereo track (or group) with the Mid mic on channel 1 and the Side mic on channel 2. Drop the MSED plugin on it, and enjoy normal left/right stereo from there on. You can adjust the stereo width by tweaking the relative balance of mid and side gains. More S or less M means wider, and vice versa.

The plugin includes a phase meter and vectorscope so you can visualise the stereo image width and balance.

When I flip the polarity back it sounds much louder and more clear?

Mono usuaĺly has that effect.... It sounds from your description like your Sides level is overwhelming your Mid signal, leaving a rather phasey result with a hole in the middle... probably because you are trying g to stretch a narrow guitar unrealistically far out to the sides

I read an article by Zukan suggest using a Voxengo plugin. So I'm just wondering if I'm doing it correctly.

Great minds on the Voxengo thing... ...but yes, you're doing it right. Mid mic panned centre. Sides mic duplicated, original panned hard left, duplicate inverted and panned had right. Both Side channels linked as you adjust their level.

A typical starting point, with a cardioid mid, to emulate XY cardioids, is for the Sides signal level to be around 9dB lower than the Mid signal level... but obviously you can adjust to taste — that's the whole point!

However, excessive Sides level will give a phasey result that will sound much quieter in mono. If you have access to a phase meter don't let the indicator spend any significant time between o and -1 (the red end of the scale).

Am I right thinking there is mid/side recording and then there seems to be mid side options in the mixing stage as well.

You can post-produce an MS recording to alter the stereo width, yes — that's one of the key benefits.

I'm recording a single voice and acoustic guitar so its kind of mono really, I'm trying to have the guitar either side of voice in the middle. Any tips much appreciated!

I probably wouldn't use the MS technique for that. I'd probably use two separate mics, or even double track the guitar.

As you say, a guitar isn't very wide, so you've really got two central sources... and even if you consider the guitar as a stereo source one side is bassy and the other bright and squeaky, so not naturally left/right balanced.

Reverb is your friend...

[Aled Hughes]

In case it's of use, Reaper has a bundled plugin for this (probably not as comprehensive as the Voxengo one, but does the job). It's called Mid/Side decoder, and you just drop in on a stereo track which has the mid mic on channel 1 and the sides on channel 2, as Hugh described above.

[Matt Houghton]

I'm trying to have the guitar either side of voice in the middle. Any tips much appreciated!

As others suggest, M/S recording won't do this for you. There are various ways you can have the guitar on both sides to make space for the vocal in the middle. As Hugh says, (real) double tracking is probably the best option, assuming you can play the part the same way twice.

In that scenario, I'd personally prefer to record the guitar and vocal separately, because if you have any vocal spill on the guitar mic and then pan it, then it can cause problems. But I realise that's not to everyone's taste, and might even affect the way you sing/play.

More generally, this article might be worth reading, if you've not read it already...

[rggillespie]

Thanks for all the great tips, I was recording it separately as I thought it would allow me more options. The vocal is straight cardioid and then the single guitar part mid/side. I'll download the voxengo and try that as its shown in the article I read. 'leaving a rather phasey result with a hole in the middle... probably because you are trying to stretch a narrow guitar unrealistically far out to the sides' this is exactly what it sounds like, not quite right somehow but I wasn't sure what I was hearing and why. I was after the hole in the middle in a sense to have the vocal there, accompanied by the guitar not competing with it. I'll experiment with the panning and bring the sides in closer. Am I right to think you must treat the mid and centre guitar parts exactly the same, compression, eq etc. For example I put a little ambience reverb on the mid part but not on the sides. I've a feeling that's not recommended maybe that would cause phase issues?

[Hugh Robjohns]

People often process the Mid and Sides signals differently to achieve the desired spatial effect and/or control. There's nothing wrong in that... but it helps if you understand how such processing affects the image width and mono compatibility.

Adding (stereo) reverb to the Mid signal is absolutely fine — most reverb sum stereo inputs to mono before generating the stereo reverb sound stage... so you're just saving it the effort of creating that mono sum.

[Matt Houghton]

I was after the hole in the middle in a sense to have the vocal there, accompanied by the guitar not competing with it.

A big problem with your creating 'a hole in the middle' approach is that it likely won't work well at all with mono playback. Another is that it's unlikely to give you the sound you really want from your guitar.

If you find that there's a need to create such a whole in the first place, I'd suggest that it's *probably* a sign that the guitar part could be played differently in the first place to keep it out of the way of the voice — whether that's mean using a different guitar, transposing melodies, different chord inversions, re-writing so the guitar plays more simple parts when the voice is singing and does a bit more in between vocal phrases... or whatever.

If you're happy that the parts *do* work well together, you should be able to create all the separation you need using EQ and dynamics control.

When you've done that you can think about where you want to pan things — if this mix fits together in mono, then you're free to pan things wherever you want them. Then consider what sort of reverb you might want to apply to make it seem like all these sounds are in in the same space. You could also send from an acoustic guitar panned one side to a mono reverb on the other side for width. Or have two guitar parts (eg a double tracked part) opposition panned, and send both to the same stereo reverb etc. And then consider whether you want to filter or otherwise process the send from each sound to your reverb(s), so as to push things backward in the virtual soundstage.

Hope that's useful. It may be that I've misunderstood what you're trying to do, but on the face of it, it seems to me that M/S recording won't give you what you're hoping for here.

[ef37a]

Can I point out that the Reslo (RB) ribbon is not front/back symmetrical?

Even if you remove all the pads (but then don't talk at it!) the magnet structure makes it far from a good choice for M/S work I would suspect.

My son got interested in this so I made him up an XLR 'mixer' cable with one plug reversed polarity. He will probably use it with a pair of Behrry C2s but has not reported back yet...Kids eh!

Dave.

[Hugh Robjohns]

Can I point out that the Reslo (RB) ribbon is not front/back symmetrical?

True... few ribbons are (usually intentionally)...but I doubt the presence range difference on the Reslo front/back would be that relevant in this case.

Nonetheless, as an experiment, the OP could swap the mics and use the Reslo as Mid and the OC818 in fig-8 mode for the Sides — the OC818 having very good front/back symmetry.

[James Perrett]

A big problem with your creating 'a hole in the middle' approach is that it likely won't work well at all with mono playback.

I'd add that this is a very common issue that I find when mastering. I've had quite a few mixes come through where some elements of the mix completely disappear when the mono button is pressed.

[The Elf]

A big problem with your creating 'a hole in the middle' approach is that it likely won't work well at all with mono playback.

I'd add that this is a very common issue that I find when mastering. I've had quite a few mixes come through where some elements of the mix completely disappear when the mono button is pressed.

+99!

I was once called in to save a mix where the 'beat' (sigh... i.e. stereo mix to be rapped over) phase cancelled parts of itself in both polarity options. That was a fun session!

[rggillespie]

Thanks Matt, I will be working in stereo, what I meant was a single guitar and a voice would be right in the centre of the soundstage so its like mono in that sense of seemingly coming from a single point in space. I'm making progress bit by bit and these answers are helping a great deal. My reslo was fixed years ago by Stewart at xaudia and I think he took out some padding. I panned the two sides from the reslo to centre and it almost entirely cancels each other out, just a hint of the sound, so close but not identical then. I'll definitely try it as the mid, it has a smooth soft sound I really like. The voxengo has been downloaded looking forward to trying it out!

[Hugh Robjohns]

...what I meant was a single guitar and a voice would be right in the centre of the soundstage so its like mono in that sense of seemingly coming from a single point in space.

If you were at an acoustic concert with a singing guitarist, it would sound like the guitar and voice were in the centre of the soundstage with reverb all around.

If it's good enough for real life....

[Hugh Robjohns]

I was once called in to save a mix where the 'beat' (sigh... i.e. stereo mix to be rapped over) phase cancelled parts of itself in both polarity options. That was a fun session!

I can recommend Voxengo's PHA-979 for that! Just dial in a 45 to 90 degree phase shift in one channel. Nothing cancels...

https://www.voxengo.com/product/pha979/

Mono compatibility is HUGELY overlooked. I see threads on other forums (mostly classical recording) almost everyday with people saying they never check it and don't care,
"...cos who listens in mono anyway?"

...and yet I know so many people that only listen to music from a single Alexa speaker in the kitchen, or through the speaker in their phone...

[The Elf]

Mono compatibility is HUGELY overlooked. I see threads on other forums (mostly classical recording) almost everyday with people saying they never check it and don't care,
"...cos who listens in mono anyway?"

...and yet I know so many people that only listen to music from a single Alexa speaker in the kitchen, or through the speaker in their phone...

Agreed. I believe there's more mono listening now than ever. But nobody wants to hear this - they just want to know which compressor will get them a top ten hit.

This rash of godawful spring reverbs is a PITA right now - I had two mix jobs in the latter half of last year where I've had to remove opposite-lock spring reverb and apply a stereo one. No big deal, but I doubt that many would have even considered it.

I'm long past the example above, but I'll keep that plug-in in mind. I very much hope I never encounter that kind of Gordian Knot again! I did manage to get them something workable, but what I did is lost in the mists of memory...

[ef37a]

Can I point out that the Reslo (RB) ribbon is not front/back symmetrical?

True... few ribbons are (usually intentionally)...but I doubt the presence range difference on the Reslo front/back would be that relevant in this case.

Nonetheless, as an experiment, the OP could swap the mics and use the Reslo as Mid and the OC818 in fig-8 mode for the Sides — the OC818 having very good front/back symmetry.

So Hugh, you are saying that despite the magnets obscuring some 75% of one side of the RB's ribbon it will still be suitable for an M/S setup?

If that is the case I shall remove* the 'blast pads' from my sample and give the technique a go.

*This is going to be tricky for me now. Loins will need to be firmly girded!

Dave.

[Hugh Robjohns]

So Hugh, you are saying that despite the magnets obscuring some 75% of one side of the RB's ribbon it will still be suitable for an M/S setup?

It wouldn't be my first choice, and the imaging will sound a bit wonky on the LSO or Voces8... but for a bit of a stereo effect on an inherently lopsided acoustic guitar you'll probably get something workable with a bit of width.

Of that is the case I shall remove* the 'blast pads' from my sample and give the technique a go.

I wouldn't... especially if you plan to use the mic on a guitar cab or for vocals in the future. Try it as is, first.

If you're serious about MS recording there are far better Side mic options available.

[Sam Spoons]

If you're serious about MS recording there are far better Side mic options available.

Have you any specific, preferably budget ribbon*, recommendations Hugh? I do have a Blue Reactor which has fig 8.

* I don't have a ribbon so maybe kill two avian dinosaurs with one silicon chunk projectile.

[Wonks]

You could always have a look at old oak trees in case there are any ribbons tied to them.

[Wonks]

Andertons currently have the MXL R144 for £80. https://www.andertons.co.uk/mxl-r144-sm ... icrophone/

About the cheapest ribbon I could find.

https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/mxl-r144

[Sam Spoons]

I'll look into that one. I have a couple of MXL Cube LDCs which are much better than their price suggests.

[Aled Hughes]

If you're serious about MS recording there are far better Side mic options available.

Have you any specific, preferably budget ribbon*, recommendations Hugh? I do have a Blue Reactor which has fig 8.

* I don't have a ribbon so maybe kill two avian dinosaurs with one silicon chunk projectile.

The Beyerdynamic M130 was designed for MS recording (though it's a superbly capable mic on its own too). It's tiny, cute and sounds great, but quite a bit more expensive now than they were just a few years ago (IIRC I got mine new for a bit more than £400 each, and they're now around £650)

[James Perrett]

Andertons currently have the MXL R144 for £80. https://www.andertons.co.uk/mxl-r144-sm ... icrophone/

About the cheapest ribbon I could find.

I had a play with one of those recently. It sounded good on classical guitar but a bit dull (in my opinion) on steel strung guitar. I didn't try both sides though to see if there was a difference.

[Wonks]

Andertons currently have the MXL R144 for £80. https://www.andertons.co.uk/mxl-r144-sm ... icrophone/

About the cheapest ribbon I could find.

I had a play with one of those recently. It sounded good on classical guitar but a bit dull (in my opinion) on steel strung guitar. I didn't try both sides though to see if there was a difference.

Paul White said: "The R144's tonality — which seems almost identical for the front and rear of the mic" so probably as close as most ribbons are to being symmetrical.