Orchestral reverb spacing

[Hugh Robjohns]

I guess it depends on what orchestral layout you're trying to model....

Really, I understand you want it to 'be right' but there is no 'right' because every orchestra is different and their seating plans change with different venues and different repertoires.

So just fiddle with the panning until it sounds right to you... but as the Elf says, the image width tends to decrease the further away things are...

H

[Moroccomoose]

Thanks, that settles the argument in my mind! I was torn between visualising panning as an angle in the sonic field, or as a distance to the right or left from the listening position. By visualising as an angle, no need to push things further L or R as they radiate away from the listening position.

Right - now to set up all the articulations

Cheers!

[Peterlkarl]

I always set up 3-4 reverbs in DP, though not usually to simulate an orchestral performance environment. If I'm understanding what you're trying to, you could just set up 4 stereo Aux sends and returns, each with similar Proverb impulse responses employed, but varying pre-delay settings, (and maybe progressively longer decay times). Have a ball!

[The Elf]

I always set up 3-4 reverbs in DP, though not usually to simulate an orchestral performance environment. If I'm understanding what you're trying to, you could just set up 4 stereo Aux sends and returns, each with similar Proverb impulse responses employed, but varying pre-delay settings, (and maybe progressively longer decay times). Have a ball!

As I explained above, one reverb produces a less cluttered, less phasey and more convicing result that simply adding the same reverb multiple times.

Try it yourself and see.

[Zukan]

Good technique Elf. I like.

[tadghostal]

This is an excellent source of info! Thanks Elf and co. I've learned a lot just by reading this and trying it out. I'm going to incorporate it into my newbie work and see how it pans out

[Martin Walker]

This is an excellent source of info! Thanks Elf and co. I've learned a lot just by reading this and trying it out. I'm going to incorporate it into my newbie work and see how it pans out

Of course you get extra SOS forum points for managing to slip in a pun there tadhostal

Martin

[ManFromGlass]

Pantastic

[Wonks]

Don't fader way.

[ManFromGlass]

the constitution of an aux

[Gone To Lunch]

As I explained above, one reverb produces a less cluttered, less phasey and more convicing result that simply adding the same reverb multiple times.

Try it yourself and see.

Indeed I did try this and that is exactly what I found, it is less cluttered and more convincing.

But I also grouped some of the sends thus, because it is such a PITA to use microscopic send controls in DP, I send individual instruments to a shared reverb aux bus thus

Strings - Vln1, Vln2, Vla, Vc, DB
WindsL - flute, oboe etc
WindsR- clarinets
Perc - all of them
Horns
Trumpets
Tbones
Piano, Mallets remain individual

However the indiv instruments are panned individually, they just share a common reverb

The reverb sends from the aux bus are varied to fake distance thus

B - Perc = 0
BM - Brass -4
FM - Winds -8
F - Strings - 12

Keys and Mallets in between BM & FM - 6

This is the best so far, but of course I am now drowning in the hell of infinite editing opportunities without a deadline to meet.

[Sam Spoons]

That looks as if you are delaying the strings and not the percussion, surely the percussion, who are at the front of the orchestra, would need more delay than the percussion who are at the back?

[Wonks]

That looks as if you are delaying the strings and not the percussion, surely the percussion, who are at the front of the orchestra, would need more delay than the percussion who are at the back?

Percussion front and back? Obviously a severe case of 'more cowbell'.

[Sam Spoons]

Bugger , changed my mind on the phrasing but buggered up my edit (in my defence it was well past beer-o'clock).......

Percussion at back, long delay, strings at front short or no delay.

[jimjazzdad]

As I explained above, one reverb produces a less cluttered, less phasey and more convicing result that simply adding the same reverb multiple times.

Try it yourself and see.

Indeed I did try this and that is exactly what I found, it is less cluttered and more convincing.

But I also grouped some of the sends thus, because it is such a PITA to use microscopic send controls in DP, I send individual instruments to a shared reverb aux bus thus

Strings - Vln1, Vln2, Vla, Vc, DB
WindsL - flute, oboe etc
WindsR- clarinets
Perc - all of them
Horns
Trumpets
Tbones
Piano, Mallets remain individual

However the indiv instruments are panned individually, they just share a common reverb

The reverb sends from the aux bus are varied to fake distance thus

B - Perc = 0
BM - Brass -4
FM - Winds -8
F - Strings - 12

Keys and Mallets in between BM & FM - 6

This is the best so far, but of course I am now drowning in the hell of infinite editing opportunities without a deadline to meet.

Wow. Reading this makes my small but orderly brain hurt! This is exactly why I like to capture orchestra as simply as possible - an MS pair or maybe spaced omnis - and add a bit of Bricasti dust on the stereo bus as required. A well placed coincident pair will always give a more realistic image with depth than any amount of hocus pocus in post... (just my humble opinion; carry on!)

[Sam Spoons]

Me too (though acoustic jazz/folk bands rather than orchestras) but I think the OP is trying to construct a realistic sounding orchestra recording from samples/VSTi's.

[Drew Stephenson]

Percussion at back, long delay, strings at front short or no delay.

Assuming we're talking the delay on the reverb, nope.
Percussion at the back means that the sound has a short distance to travel before hitting the back wall and therefore the reflected sound arrives quicker than the reflected sound from the strings, which has a greater distance to travel (hence a longer pre-delay).

[Sam Spoons]

That makes sense

[Wonks]

That makes sense

Drew starts to doubt himself....

[Moroccomoose]

an MS pair or maybe spaced omnis - and add a bit of Bricasti dust on the stereo bus as required. A well placed coincident pair will always give a more realistic image with depth than any amount of hocus pocus in post... (just my humble opinion; carry on!)

Of course if you have a spare orchestra and room to play them in, the well placed coincident pair will do just perfectly... But this is really about trying to make virtual (sampled) instruments sound like they are in a real space and arranged realistically.

Stu.

[Drew Stephenson]

That makes sense

Drew starts to doubt himself....

Never stopped!

[Rich Hanson]

Percussion at back, long delay, strings at front short or no delay.

Assuming we're talking the delay on the reverb, nope.
Percussion at the back means that the sound has a short distance to travel before hitting the back wall and therefore the reflected sound arrives quicker than the reflected sound from the strings, which has a greater distance to travel (hence a longer pre-delay).

Of course, for the full effect you also need to account for the wall behind the audience too and the delay situation would be more or less opposite but possibly at a lower level (yes, I know that's probably over-complicating it)

[jimjazzdad]

Of course if you have a spare orchestra and room to play them in, the well placed coincident pair will do just perfectly... But this is really about trying to make virtual (sampled) instruments sound like they are in a real space and arranged realistically.

Stu.

Sorry. I must have been asleep in mastering class when they handed out the assignment.

[ManFromGlass]

Ok I finally had time to give it a try in Logic. First attempt set up correctly but didn’t really work for my ears until I put the sends all to pre-fader. Then I could lower the initial sound but keep the reverb high. Perhaps this is cheat way to lose the initial bright attack of instruments at the back, rather than eq them. I was only working with 1 short repeated piano note. I know strings, horns and other slower attack sounds may not need a pre-fader approach.
I’ll keep working with it.

The other issue is the one mentioned previously about how the further the reverb source is the more mono it is, or is it the instrument that becomes more mono? I better re-read!