Anyone else's Neumann KH80 randomly reset themselves?

[Kayvon]

Hi all,

First off I've contacted Sennheiser support about this and the chappy on the phone was helpful although the relevant people were a bit hard to get hold of to troubleshoot (currently on holiday, I missed him after calling back a fortnight ago as well).

Basically one of my KH80s keeps on powercycling or restarting itself. This was happening with or without audio running through it. V annoying and has happened in the middle of a take before. It's been happening more often recently and unfortunately has now started happening in the other one as well.

Interestingly I was producing all last night with a lot of 'sub' bass hits going through the speakers and it didn't happen once. Typically I've very much been sporadically going back and forth to my setup and I'm starting to wonder if that has something to do with it as from what I gather the auto power off circuits of gear can cause problems. Maybe with them constantly working hard they're a bit more 'warmed up' and less likely to power cycle?

So yeah, it would be good to hear of other peoples experiences with these monitors which, as good as they sound have really turned me off DSP monitors. TBH I'm not even very keen on the sound of them when they're in room correction eq mode and prefer to run them flat.

Few more details; I think from when I first bought them one of the two was less inclined to auto power off but at that time I suspected it was due to one of the main outs on my Mackie desk being a bit noisier than the other. So at that point I didn't bother contacting Red Dog who I bought them off and then after a while they unfortunately went bust. So now these monitors are well out of warranty. Also, I use them in local control mode and have tried the reset thing, interestingly I've just tried it again this second and the slightly better speaker won't reset to factory default mode and isn't being recognised by the Neumann control app

All pretty disappointing if you ask me. The option to get them replaced at £234 each is always there but I think I'm probably out when it comes to having computers in my speakers tbh.

Oh yeah, and Neumann never implemented the low latency mode...

[Hugh Robjohns]

That does all sound disappointing for a premium product, I agree.

I seem to recall hearing that there is an internal tweak to adjust the sensitivity of the auto shut down, but I don't have any details. One to discuss with Neumann's rep I think...

On a more practical note, it may not be the case -- and I'm definitely not trying to teach egg-blowing... but I'm wondering if your monitoring chain gain structure might be awry.

It could be worth trying a lower output level setting on the KH80s (if you're not already at 94dB SPL) so that you need to push a little more signal into the speakers to achieve your preferred acoustic reference level, for example, which might help to keep things above the switching threshold...

[Kayvon]

Hi Hugh, thanks for the reply.

I use them at the 94dB setting but to be honest since moving I haven't set them up again properly with a level meter. I'm currently using them directly from the main outputs of my RME Babyface but it was happening with a Steinberg Ci2 interface with different cables as well. Ideally I'd be using a monitor controller or a desk but it is quite a neat set up this way.

I'm gonna disable the auto standby for a while and see how that affects things. One more thing I didn't mention, occasionally after going into standby the flakier speaker buzzes excessively. I'm guessing that one was faulty from the factory. The other one has now started to play ball with the Neumann app but still won't reset with the flashing rosé factory default.

Well, I guess I'll have to wait and see what happens with the auto standby turned off. I don't suppose it'll affect the electricity bill a great deal and it's not the biggest hardship to reach over and turn them off each night.

Perhaps all this constitutes fair grounds for upgrading to a four way system? Or at least a 3.5 way

[Drew Stephenson]

Just to answer your opening question, i've had my KH80s for quite a while now and had no issues of any kind. But I've never used the control app on them.

[Hugh Robjohns]

I'm gonna disable the auto standby for a while and see how that affects things.

Good idea -- that will prove whether the power cycling is an issue with that function or not.

Another test you can do with the auto power function turned on is:
1. set both monitors to 94dB SPL and turn the volume pot to minimum
2. then feed a healthy mono signal into both speakers (ideal via a cable splitter so they are being driven with exactly the same level)
3. and then see if one turns on or off significantly before the other.

That might indicate if one speaker is behaving significantly differently to the other.

One more thing I didn't mention, occasionally after going into standby the flakier speaker buzzes excessively.

That doesn't sound good... and it also suggests it's not actually turning off properly!

I'm also told by another KH80 user that spurious clicks on the audio lines from the connected source equipment can be enough to cause the speakers to power up apparently at random...

But it does sound like you might have a 'friday afternoon' speaker there... ... but just for balance, I'm told that the in-warranty defect rate for the KH80 has historically been extremely low and better than other KH products...

[Mike Shand]

Yes, I’ve had (still unresolved) problems with them “randomly” waking up, but never the opposite problem described by the OP. The threshold can be adjusted somewhat in the app, but I have not observed it making any difference to my problem.

[Hugh Robjohns]

Yes, the random waking up thing is probably due to odd glitches and clicks on the audio cables picking up interference, or ground disturbances. Easily provide by disabling the auto-power mode.

[kesman2401]

I'm gonna disable the auto standby for a while and see how that affects things.

Hi Kayvon, I wonder is this problem still happening to you since you disabled the auto standby feature?

I got a pair of these monitors a few weeks back and one or the other will just shut off at random. It's been happening ever since I got them. The light on the front panel goes off and sound stops. It might come back on after 10 or 20 seconds without me doing anything, but often won't wake up again at all and will then require me to switch off the speaker from the back and switch it back on again (although I did manage to wake one up tonight with a short output volume boost on my interface). Apparently the Auto Standby feature is set to 90mins by default but I'd be doing well getting through half that period of time before one of the monitors nods off, even with sound being played back through them the whole time (!!).

The Auto Standby feature has been set to 'On' on Local Control since I got them, but I have just turned it to 'Off' to see if this improves things. As was mentioned above, really disappointing stuff from a premium product...

[Watchmaker]

I have no problems with mine. I don't use "auto" anything though. If I can't trust myself to power stuff down properly, how can I trust a team who's designing for an unpredictable and variegated user base?

[Drew Stephenson]

As before, no problems here. Auto-standby works as you'd expect.

[Hugh Robjohns]

The Auto-standby function is obviously totally dependent on the input signal level.

Consequently, if your monitoring chain gain-structure is awry, or you are in the habit of listening to music at very low levels for long periods*, then the speaker's auto-standby circuitry may well decide to shut down at inopportune moments.

*I find when I have my KH310s on for background music the input level is around -40dBu...

[Kayvon]

I haven't forgotten about this thread but I'm still doing some testing, most recently I've been trying the gain pots at 0dB instead of -15dB. Which has made things worse with regarding to inopportunely turning off.

Thought I'd post because I had to laugh, came in to do some music, one of the monitors was already on i.e. hadn't gone into standby, the other was off. I press play on a YT video and the one on standby sparks into life and at the very moment audio starts playing through the other one decides to have a snooze

Hi Kayvon, I wonder is this problem still happening to you since you disabled the auto standby feature?

It didn't as far as I could tell. So I guess it would suggest a problem with that feature.

[Hugh Robjohns]

I haven't forgotten about this thread but I'm still doing some testing, most recently I've been trying the gain pots at 0dB instead of -15dB. Which has made things worse with regarding to inopportunely turning off.

That doesn't seem surprising since, for the same acoustic listening level, you'd have to run a lower input signal level input... And if it was previously borderline for the auto shut-down threshold, it would now be 15dB lower!

[Kayvon]

Hah yes. I thought I'd better at least try though as I can't second guess what's going on in these boxes. I'd wondered if a little self noise might help proceedings heh

The Auto-standby function is obviously totally dependent on the input signal level.

Consequently, if your monitoring chain gain-structure is awry, or you are in the habit of listening to music at very low levels for long periods*, then the speaker's auto-standby circuitry may well decide to shut down at inopportune moments.

*I find when I have my KH310s on for background music the input level is around -40dBu...

I'm starting to think I may just listen to music too quietly for the standby threshold. As there's seemingly nothing else I can do with regards to levels from the monitors, I can't reduce their output any lower.

I vaguely understand the concept of s/n ratio vis-a-vis digital level vs analogue attenuation but in practical terms will the monitors 'see' any difference between the output from my audio interface vs the same level coming from a monitor controller? Will it effectively be something like impedance? I'm sure there's an article on this very site about it somewhere...

There's one more thing I think I can try which is to have the speakers in network control mode but just don't use any of the eq functions and they won't permanently be plugged in to a router either. There's an option to adjust the standby level in the app. I guess I'm gonna have to dig out my measurement microphone!

[adambier]

I've had my KH 80 DSPs for a few months now and while the sound is fantastic, random sleep/wake occurrences are driving me nuts.

Initially it seemed like the signal measurement system used to go into and out of standby was completely random, and Sennheiser actually had me ship my units (which had been in stock at Sweetwater here in the U.S.) to their Connecticut service center so they could install some kind of mod (not sure exactly what it was supposed to do, but apparently issues with the U.S. mains service are known to create problems). According to the support tech, these mods are identical to ones installed (only now, I assume) at the factory, which of course raises the question of why they haven't done a recall for un-modified units.

Anyway, following the installation of the mods, the system has become much more reliable and less random, and as long as you don't set the standby voltage/SPL threshold too low in Neumann.Connect (which, as an aside, really ought not give you the option to do so, since low enough settings make it impossible for any circuit to separate signal from line noise). Spending HOURS running experiments and collecting data at different thresholds (with short standby times) I can safely say that it indeed seems both units function properly in this respect. The occasional false positive (a speaker waking while no signal is present), while also mildly annoying, isn't a big deal and may be due to remaining line noise (my cables are in a dense space).

However, I am still randomly experiencing a situation whereby one speaker or the other (but mostly my right one) will all of a sudden go into standby while a strong signal is (and has been for some time) present. At that point, the unit will (correctly) wake up again a few seconds later, but it's super annoying and I have no idea what's causing it. The protection circuit hasn't engaged, since the logo hasn't turned red before powering off/going to sleep.

All that's left for me to do now is to swap out XLR and power cables, swap the connections on my interface, and see if the problem still exists when I set the units to local (not networked) config and see if there's any difference. Turning off standby altogether does fix this issue (the speakers stay on 24/7), but that's not enough information to fully diagnose this. I will continue to collect data and email the Sennheiser support team, but if any of you have any relevant experiences, insights, or things you've heard from Sennheiser, I'd greatly appreciate hearing about them.

[Marbury]

Almost pulled the trigger on ordering these over my old Spirit Absolute 2s but reading the above experiences I think I'll pass.

[Sam Spoons]

I think you'll find a lot more happy customers than ones with issues. Get the signal level driving the speaker in the ballpark and it's highly unlikely you'd have a problem,

[Jorge]

Is there any downside to just not using the auto power feature and turning your whole system on before you use it and off when you finish? I do that with my KH120s and have never had a problem.

[Hugh Robjohns]

None at all.

[Jorge]

Great, thanks. I like the KH120s a lot but am considering getting the KH80s instead of KH120s for a small video studio at work. From all the reviews and discussion it seems the KH80s excel in the sound department but have had some issues in the clever digital trickery department.

[jjtmd]

I just purchased a pair of KH 80 monitors, they sound great, but my comments are regarding the auto standby feature, local control.
From the start one of the units failed to ever go into standby mode, ie the white light remained lit hours after I turned off my Apollo Twin. The other monitor shut itself down after roughly 90 minutes (white light not lit). So I swapped the two boxes, without swapping the input cords or power cords. In the new position the monitor still failed to power itself down (white light remained lit at all times).
As an aside, I'm grateful I don't have the opposite problem as reported above whereby the monitor shuts itself off while in playback mode, that would be intolerable. My issue is annoying, one feels that for the money spent the unit should function as designed, after all, the other monitor does.
The tech support at Sweetwater were kind enough to send a replacement, and guess what? A variation of the same problem, again I'm happy it doesn't ever reset itself during playback. But it does display a weird tendency to intermittently go to stand by appropriately, other times the white light remains lit, for hours. There's no pattern I can discern. Again, I swapped the boxes and the replacement monitor does the same thing in the new position on the desk.
To be clear, I am not attached to a network, this is a local control issue.
So it seems the problem has to do with threshold settings, both to power down to auto stand by, and for some unlucky customers, to fail to remain on despite a strong input.
Thoughts anyone?

[Hugh Robjohns]

I wonder if there is ground noise or interference causing the shutdown detector to keep retriggering?

Do the two monitors still behave so differently if you disconnect the audio cables from their inputs?

[jjtmd]

If I pull the input cable from the monitor that keeps waking up inappropriately, it stays asleep, so yes, I think you are correct. This morning when I got up the monitor was in standby (white light not lit). A few minutes later I walked by my desk and noticed it had woken up (white light lit), so I wonder if that had something to do with turning on lights elsewhere in the house? Tomorrow AM I will check out that possibility.

[jjtmd]

I received a replacement KH 80 (the second replacement) a few days ago, and it works as designed, ie it goes into auto standby mode appropriately.

[Hugh Robjohns]

[Drew Stephenson]

Interestingly* one of mine went into standby mid-play last week. Hasn't happened again but nervously keeping an eye on it now.

* Probably only for this audience.

[Hugh Robjohns]

Hmmm.... this auto power feature does seem to be a weak point, doesn't it? I can excuse, to a degree, false wake-ups caused by electrical noise on the line. But false shut-downs when in use is much more troubling...

[Drew Stephenson]

Only happened once in 18 months ish (I can't actually remember where I got these) so not overly concerned at the moment. I can always turn the auto-standby off - they're not exactly a heavy power drain.

[Kayvon]

I've basically written off my KH80s now. It's really difficult to pin down intermittent faults like these. To buy the speakers again from Neumann at a reduced price is not something I'm particularly keen on doing having coughed up already.

It's funny, at the time I was keen on investing in a set of speakers that would last for a good long period of time. The Neumanns didn't make it much past 2 years.

I do appreciate that things can go wrong over time and typically I'm not one to buy new technology when it's first been released but since it was Neumann I forewent that prudence. Ah well.

[Kayvon]

Perhaps my previous post is a bit toys out the pram. They still work as monitor speakers without the auto-standby mode but the other annoying thing for me was that they never implemented the negligible latency mode.

Since my cumulative latency (Ableton Live I'm looking at you) was causing me recording issues (still does tbh) I was intent on cutting out any latency wherever possible. The extra monitoring latency on top of everything I could've done without.

Sometimes I think music technology is less of a hobby and more of a battle