Best way to tune a flat piano recording

For everything after the recording stage: hardware/software and how you use it.

Moderator: Moderators

Best way to tune a flat piano recording

Post by wearashirt »

Hi everybody,

I record pianos acoustically, however the grand piano I use is flat by 0.11-13 cents. I simply use the transpose box that's alongside other clip functions. My problem is that the transposed piano recording sound "warps". It sort of sounds like a Wah that's at the far end. The Wah sound is there whether in mid-side, spaced pair, perpendicular closed pair outside the lid or above the hammers.

I use two affordable large diaphragm condenser mics that have the usual 3 polar patterns.

Is there a more advanced way of transposing/tuning a piano recording that minimizes undesirable effects such as the "warping" sound?

Is there a mic'ing technique that withstands tranposing better? (though I think I've mentioned everything).


There are other undesirable sounds ,such as the hammer hits sound unnatural (like the went in slow mo?).

Pro-wise, the pianos sit nicely in a full, multi-instrument mix. The high mids are enhanced in a non-phasey way, leaving just a little need for a 2k or 3k boost.

Since recording piano is so laborious, I haven't sufficiently tried all mic'ing methods and have settled on mid-side facing the curvature with aa half open lid.
wearashirt
Regular
Posts: 122 Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:18 am Location: Manila, Philippines

Re: Best way to tune a flat piano recording

Post by RichardT »

I don’t think you can do this without affecting the sound noticeably, unfortunately. Mic positions won’t affect the outcome.

Some instruments withstand transposition better than others. Pianos take it badly!
RichardT
Jedi Poster
Posts: 4074 Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2004 12:00 am Location: Ireland

Re: Best way to tune a flat piano recording

Post by Hugh Robjohns »

The simple harmonic structure and sustained tones with smooth decays of a piano make it excellent at exposing artefacts from pitch-shift/transposition algorithms.

Running the original recording at a slightly faster speed may give a better sounding result... But surely the obvious solution is to tune your other instruments down to the piano.
User avatar
Hugh Robjohns
Moderator
Posts: 38835 Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 12:00 am Location: Worcestershire, UK
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound...
(But generally posting my own personal views and not necessarily those of SOS, the company or the magazine!)
In my world, things get less strange when I read the manual... 

Re: Best way to tune a flat piano recording

Post by TheLegit »

Have you tried Melodyne at all it can tune polyphonic recordings:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dv-HNa85YIk
TheLegit
Regular
Posts: 149 Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:16 pm

Re: Best way to tune a flat piano recording

Post by Tim Gillett »

wearashirt wrote:Hi everybody,

I record pianos acoustically, however the grand piano I use is flat by 0.11-13 cents...

I believe one semitone represents 100 cents. So 0.13 cents is a very small pitch difference. I'm not sure it would even be noticed. If it was significant, tuning the piano up to standard pitch could be done as part of tuning the piano I guess. Edit: Wiki says a 1 cent difference is too small to be perceived by listening. Are you sure it is 0.11 to 0.13 cents?
Tim Gillett
Frequent Poster (Level2)
Posts: 2625 Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:00 am Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: Best way to tune a flat piano recording

Post by The Elf »

I'm with Tim on this. That's a tiny amount of pitch shift and should be almost inaudible, unless something truly strange or erroneous is going on.

That said, if possible, I'd simply shift the playback speed, rather than using any 'clever' shift/stretch process.
User avatar
The Elf
Jedi Poster
Posts: 19938 Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2001 12:00 am Location: Sheffield, UK
An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Re: Best way to tune a flat piano recording

Post by RichardT »

Tim Gillett wrote:
wearashirt wrote:Hi everybody,

I record pianos acoustically, however the grand piano I use is flat by 0.11-13 cents...

I believe one semitone represents 100 cents. So 0.13 cents is a very small pitch difference. I'm not sure it would even be noticed. If it was significant, tuning the piano up to standard pitch could be done as part of tuning the piano I guess. Edit: Wiki says a 1 cent difference is too small to be perceived by listening. Are you sure it is 0.11 to 0.13 cents?

I assumed the OP meant 11 to 13 cents. 0.11 cents is inaudible even to experienced piano tuners, as wiki says.
RichardT
Jedi Poster
Posts: 4074 Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2004 12:00 am Location: Ireland

Re: Best way to tune a flat piano recording

Post by wearashirt »

Indeed, I meant to say 11 cents. I'm just used to typing 0.11 or 0.13, in the dialog box.

When I think about it, I tend to veer away from close micing, as with it I end up having to transpose on the higher end of the 0.11-0.15 range. Whereas airy mic'ing can get away with less pitch shifting.

Tuning down is also an option, just like in the jazz records of old (e.g., At Last by Etta James). But...

I will try a free trial of Melodyne. I wonder if they have a fundamentally different pitch shifting program aside from the unique feature of separating pitches?

Aren't there professional recordings that have had this problem?

Are there radio-broadcasted pop songs that are off by 10-15 cents?
wearashirt
Regular
Posts: 122 Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:18 am Location: Manila, Philippines

Re: Best way to tune a flat piano recording

Post by The Elf »

wearashirt wrote:Indeed, I meant to say 11 cents. I'm just used to typing 0.11 or 0.13, in the dialog box.

I wasn't even referring to the 0.11 figure. 11 cents is tiny enough that you shouldn't be hearing the effects of tuning correction without something being amiss.

And yes, I've corrected by much more than this on commercial recordings and you would never know. I normally use Cubase's standard pitch-related processes, but on occasions I will use Melodyne; either is fine.

Do you have a before/after example to show us?
User avatar
The Elf
Jedi Poster
Posts: 19938 Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2001 12:00 am Location: Sheffield, UK
An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Re: Best way to tune a flat piano recording

Post by wearashirt »

The Elf wrote:
wearashirt wrote:Indeed, I meant to say 11 cents. I'm just used to typing 0.11 or 0.13, in the dialog box.

I wasn't even referring to the 0.11 figure. 11 cents is tiny enough that you shouldn't be hearing the effects of tuning correction without something being amiss.

And yes, I've corrected by much more than this on commercial recordings and you would never know. I normally use Cubase's standard pitch-related processes, but on occasions I will use Melodyne; either is fine.

Do you have a before/after example to show us?

Oh gosh, yes it's there and its terrible. I'll export an example in a bit.

The piano tuner says he can't bring it up to concert pitch as he's afraid something would give, So he set it to -10 cents. He would use a tuning fork and say, "see, it's not so bad!"

But it's really off. When I track piano, I have to do the converse and down-tune the backing track (separately from drums).
wearashirt
Regular
Posts: 122 Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:18 am Location: Manila, Philippines

Re: Best way to tune a flat piano recording

Post by The Red Bladder »

This has to be the most ridiculous discussion ever to grace the pages of the SOS forum!

wearashirt wrote:Aren't there professional recordings that have had this problem?

No, of course not. We have a secret weapon. We call ours Glyn.

Glyn is a piano tuner. We call him up and the piano gets tuned to perfection. And it stays in tune throughout the recording because it is a decent piano.

10 cents and something will give??? Is the frame made out of cheese?

Set the room humidity to 55% and it will probably make up the most of that 10 cents - the tuner can do the rest.

P.S. This whole discussion reminds me of something that happened to Chris Nolan on the set of one of the batman movies. He asked for a hat stand to be removed from a room set and the VFX supervisor turned to his assistant and said "Make a note of that! Remove the hat stand in post-production!"

"No!" said Nolan. "Just pick up and move the f*cking thing!"
The Red Bladder
Frequent Poster (Level2)
Posts: 3298 Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2007 12:00 am Location: . . .
 

Re: Best way to tune a flat piano recording

Post by Folderol »

Hmmm.
When I was a kid we had an ancient wooden framed upright piano, and this could definitely not be tuned to modern concert pitch. It had been built for C=256 cps (old money) which is about 30 cents lower. It had a lovely tone {sigh}
User avatar
Folderol
Jedi Poster
Posts: 18063 Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 12:00 am Location: The Mudway Towns, UK
Yes. I am that Linux nut {apparently now an 'elderly'}
Onwards and... err... sideways!
Post Reply