Equipment hire, business idea advice needed.

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Re: Equipment hire, business idea advice needed.

Post by hobbyist »

Hugh Robjohns wrote:
hobbyist wrote:Not all bad. Just not as good as it was. Too many of them making bad stuff so the stuff that is good even harder to find.


Or... Just as good as it was, but not not spoon-fed some else's idea of what is good?


sonic quality is certainly easier and cheaper to do well now
artistically IMHO it has gotten much worse
but fortunately for them I am not the marketplace

Hugh Robjohns wrote:
hobbyist wrote:Harder for the pros to work at all when every cell phone owner can snap the pic and email it in on the spot.


Utter nonsense... An amateur cell-phone pic will never be better than an image captured by a skilled and talented pro. It's not the tech, its the eye (and the experience)... But equally, an image from a amateur on the spot will always be better than a pro still sat in the office whining about how hard it is to make a buck... ;-)


true. newspapers prefer cheap and fast to paying for higher quality photogs who arrive after the incident is being cleaned up

Hugh Robjohns wrote:
hobbyist wrote:And uncle Bob shoots weddings for free, while soccer moms take the team pics for free.


Possibly... But in those cases the chances are the budgets wouldn't be available ~today~ for a pro anyway. Times change. Why would anyone not take advantage of the technology now available if the delivered results are adequate/acceptable?


that is my experience. there used to be budgets for at least semi pro or a cheap mass production photoshoot company to come in and do it in a day

Hugh Robjohns wrote:If a business model is entirely reliant on low-budget weddings and school sports games the time has probably come to re-evaluate the business. But there will be other specialist areas where the talents and skills haven't been usurped and are still valued and profitable.


the mid range depended on those

the high end for weddings still seems to be doing okay according to the rangefinder magazine. the high end for portraits is hurting with a couple major studios hanging on

Hugh Robjohns wrote:
hobbyist wrote:I call them as I see them.


I get that. I'm just suggesting there is another way to see them, if you choose to.


I choose to see reality using logic. I understand others will disagree.

Hugh Robjohns wrote:
hobbyist wrote:Ideally technology would serve all of us so we ALL could work say 3 days a week and support our family because goods are so cheap with machines doing all the work. Nobody out of work, nobody working excessive overtime.


Sure. Maybe we will get there one day, when greed, profit and selfishness have all been eradicated from the human psyche. Won't be in my lifetime... :-(


utopia wont ever happen until after the 2nd coming of Christ
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Re: Equipment hire, business idea advice needed.

Post by Eddy Deegan »

This thread got a bit philosophical didn't it!

Reading back through everything, applying a coarse filter I think there are two broad camps of musos. Those who enjoy the process of creating music for its own sake, anything else being a bonus and those who seek to obtain fame and/or material reward from it. The two not being mutually exclusive.

The first category isn't really the subject of the discussion. As for the second, 'back in the day' (barring unusual circumstances) you had to make it through the filtering process applied by A&R folks and once on the other side of that oftentimes sign much of your creative life away.

How many bedroom artists were there in the 60s 70s and 80s ... a lot, I'd warrant. How many of them got through to a wider audience without the Internet? Hardly any.

I think Hugh's point about the same mix of good/middling/poor productions is an astute one. The real differences today being that there are more of them than back then and that the internet provides a platform for anyone to promote and have their work stand on its own merits.

Thus we have a sea of choice, and yes there is terrible stuff in droves which previously would have been filtered and nobody would ever have heard, but I'm not convinced that such filtering is a good thing.

I rather like the democratic nature of things these days. I also welcome the advances in technology that permit even the most cash-strapped bedroom artist to produce something representative of their work and get it into a position such that it can be heard by a wider audience.

I think that the modern way is preferable to the old way. I don't feel I need an A&R layer gatekeeping the material I listen to and I'm very happy that my music collection contains a significant amount of material from individuals and bands who have no affiliation with any label. Many (not all) of them from this forum. I've got to the point now where I actively seek obscure things that I like, and I buy them.

Far from being dispirited by the way the recording scene is going, I welcome the changes. One can analyse music all day, both in technical and artistic terms but ultimately if people end up with something they like to listen to then I believe analysis to be redundant, even if I personally hate a lot of it.

Music is to be enjoyed, and if someone enjoys it then that's a good thing.
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Re: Equipment hire, business idea advice needed.

Post by hobbyist »

Eddy Deegan wrote:This thread got a bit philosophical didn't it!

I think there are two broad camps of musos. Those who enjoy the process of creating music for its own sake, anything else being a bonus and those who seek to obtain fame and/or material reward from it. The two not being mutually exclusive.

The first category isn't really the subject of the discussion.

As for the second, 'back in the day' (barring unusual circumstances) you had to make it through the filtering process applied by A&R folks and once on the other side of that oftentimes sign much of your creative life away.

How many bedroom artists were there in the 60s 70s and 80s ... a lot, I'd warrant. How many of them got through to a wider audience without the Internet? Hardly any.


Much fewer bedroom artists as the gear cost so much more then.


I think Hugh's point about the same mix of good/middling/poor productions is an astute one. The real differences today being that there are more of them than back then and that the internet provides a platform for anyone to promote and have their work stand on its own merits.

Thus we have a sea of choice, and yes there is terrible stuff in droves which previously would have been filtered and nobody would ever have heard, but I'm not convinced that such filtering is a good thing.


Not so good for aspiring artists, but very good for those looking to find something they want to hear.


I rather like the democratic nature of things these days. I also welcome the advances in technology that permit even the most cash-strapped bedroom artist to produce something representative of their work and get it into a position such that it can be heard by a wider audience.


While it could be heard wider, the sheer quantity of artists and the shrinking audience means that most wont have any real audience at all.


I think that the modern way is preferable to the old way.

Far from being dispirited by the way the recording scene is going, I welcome the changes.

Music is to be enjoyed, and if someone enjoys it then that's a good thing.


Unfortunately there are fewer people listening to enjoy it with all the other distractions we have now , and the amount to go through to find what you find enjoyable is harder.

I like the idea that everyone has a better chance now, but dislike the difficulty of getting a significant following.
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Re: Equipment hire, business idea advice needed.

Post by Eddy Deegan »

hobbyist wrote:
Eddy Deegan wrote:How many bedroom artists were there in the 60s 70s and 80s ... a lot, I'd warrant. How many of them got through to a wider audience without the Internet? Hardly any.


hobbyist wrote:Much fewer bedroom artists as the gear cost so much more then.



Disclaimer: I've no empirical knowledge of the recording scene prior to the early 80s so everything I'm talking about here is anchored against that as a starting point.

Fewer, but still plenty. I knew a few at school, even back before I got into it. Recording gear in the 80s was hugely more modest, but not much more expensive at the beginner level. You could get a basic 4-track for reasonable money for example and a lot of people did great things with them. A mate of mine had a Jupiter 8, Pro One and TR909 in the mid 80s (as well as an XR3i and a Suzuki RG Gamma 500!) and he was working a modest job.

Not so good for aspiring artists, but very good for those looking to find something they want to hear.


I disagree on the former. I don't think it's any worse for aspiring artists, quite the opposite. Rather than a tiny percentage getting through the vetting process (and all others doomed to total obscurity) anyone can now get stuck in. If they are not good enough to get a significant following now then they wouldn't have been good enough then and wouldn't have got even that following. The real difference is that you have to put more effort into promotion, which would have been done for you had you passed the filter in the old days, but that's no bad thing.

hobbyist wrote:
Eddy Deegan wrote:Music is to be enjoyed, and if someone enjoys it then that's a good thing.


Unfortunately there are fewer people listening to enjoy it with all the other distractions we have now , and the amount to go through to find what you find enjoyable is harder.


I don't think for a minute there are fewer people listening to music, and more choice is good. You still have the usual places to go check out for the pre-filtered "A&R-vetted" stuff.

hobbyist wrote:I like the idea that everyone has a better chance now, but dislike the difficulty of getting a significant following.


You simply can't have it both ways. Either a tiny fraction get through and enter the PR machine of the monolothic gatekeepers or there is more visibility all round. I know which I prefer. Getting a significant following today, if you have good enough material, is no harder than it was then and I'd say it's easier for anyone in the middling bracket.

The butter is best spread evenly as opposed to bare toast with thicker lumps dotted around here and there by someone who isn't going to eat it :)
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Re: Equipment hire, business idea advice needed.

Post by hobbyist »

Eddy Deegan wrote:
hobbyist wrote:
Eddy Deegan wrote:How many bedroom artists were there in the 60s 70s and 80s ... a lot, I'd warrant. How many of them got through to a wider audience without the Internet? Hardly any.


Unfortunately there are fewer people listening to enjoy it with all the other distractions we have now , and the amount to go through to find what you find enjoyable is harder.


[quote
I don't think for a minute there are fewer people listening to music, and more choice is good. You still have the usual places to go check out for the pre-filtered "A&R-vetted" stuff.



there may be the same number listening but they are listening less and doing more video games, streaming, and other diversions.

overall i still say there is less listening going on and certainly less listening/amount_of_'music' now being created.
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Re: Equipment hire, business idea advice needed.

Post by Eddy Deegan »

hobbyist wrote:there may be the same number listening but they are listening less and doing more video games, streaming, and other diversions.

overall i still say there is less listening going on and certainly less listening/amount_of_'music' now being created.


Both of those things may be true. I like a good album and think it's a shame that things are more track-orientated these days but other than that I'm not seeing the relevance to people producing the music as that would apply to both the old and new models?

Musicians and engineers produce material. How the masses consume it after acquisition is of relatively little concern though I would imagine there's some scope there for an imaginative artist to somehow lever the short attention span that seems prevalent these days. Having said that, if someone likes something they tend to listen to it so I'm not sure of the merits of such an approach and in my case, they can literally Take It Or Leave It (the album was so named for that very reason).

Unless you're simply bemoaning that times are a'changing, in which case that's always been the way. I recall my Grandfather complaining about 'modern rubbish' in the 70s, my Mother going on about similar a decade later, I currently judge many contemporary traits and I have little doubt that in 10-20 years the children will be doing likewise and theirs after that.

Other than turning back the clock, what is it you want in practical terms? I have to confess I'm little confused as to what you're actually saying at this point if it's other than a general 'things are different now' sentiment, which I think we all agree on.

To the OP (Arpangel): I'd love a staff discount at B&Q, just saying ;)
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Re: Equipment hire, business idea advice needed.

Post by Arpangel »

Looks like a lot of water has gone under the bridge here since my last post!
I'll get a part time job if I need to, but working for myself isn't very attractive, or anyone else for that matter, I'm hoping my savings will see me out, hopefully.
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Re: Equipment hire, business idea advice needed.

Post by MOF »

so we need armageddon to fix things


Or maybe we'll finally get what Tomorrow's World promised us in the 1970's, lots of free time to do the things we want to do, not the things we have to do. :D
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Re: Equipment hire, business idea advice needed.

Post by blinddrew »

And we'd still never quite, quite finish that mix properly! :D
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Re: Equipment hire, business idea advice needed.

Post by James Perrett »

hobbyist wrote:
Eddy Deegan wrote:How many bedroom artists were there in the 60s 70s and 80s ... a lot, I'd warrant. How many of them got through to a wider audience without the Internet? Hardly any.


Much fewer bedroom artists as the gear cost so much more then.



My first reel to reel cost me a fiver back in the late 70's and I used to use it to record all kinds of creations. Adding a second reel to reel allowed me to bounce between the two and build up multi track recordings. I knew quite a few other people doing similar things and, once Teac brought out the portastudio in 1979, everyone who wanted to was making their own recordings. When I started out it was at the time of punk and DIY where it was the done thing for a band to put out something on vinyl. My first 3 bands all ended up on vinyl compilation albums. Most bands also made cassettes to sell at gigs of varying quality.

Back in those days there was a vibrant music press - Sounds, Melody Maker and NME all covered new bands and it was a sign of getting somewhere to get a mention in one of those. However, they all had extensive gig guides at the back so, even if you didn't get a mention in the main section, you could often get a listing for your gigs that week. There were also plenty of specialist magazines and then there were fanzines which were a whole different sub-culture. So there were plenty of ways to discover new music before the Internet.
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Re: Equipment hire, business idea advice needed.

Post by hobbyist »

Eddy Deegan wrote:
hobbyist wrote:there may be the same number listening but they are listening less and doing more video games, streaming, and other diversions.
overall i still say there is less listening going on and certainly less listening/amount_of_'music' now being created.


Eddy Deegan wrote:Musicians and engineers produce material. How the masses consume it after acquisition is of relatively little concern though I would imagine there's some scope there for an imaginative artist to somehow lever the short attention span that seems prevalent these days.


It costs time and money to produce material. Either you do it for fun or you are trying to make money. It is harder to make money now IMHO because of the changes over the past couple decades.

Do not have any idea how to leverage a short attention span.

Eddy Deegan wrote:Having said that, if someone likes something they tend to listen to it so I'm not sure of the merits of such an approach and in my case, they can literally Take It Or Leave It (the album was so named for that very reason).


They can not listen if they dont find it. I still claim it is harder to find things you want to hear and it takes a lot more effort than it used to.

Eddy Deegan wrote:Other than turning back the clock, what is it you want in practical terms? I have to confess I'm little confused as to what you're actually saying at this point if it's other than a general 'things are different now' sentiment, which I think we all agree on.



Just stating the situation. No way to change it. Just be aware of it and change your plans and goals to be realistic considering the changes.
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Re: Equipment hire, business idea advice needed.

Post by Arpangel »

Making money out of music "now" ?
I had to go toHolland last week to see Andre Rieu, totally not my cup of tea. My partner loves him so I had to make a compromise, she comes to see the Bohman Brothers and goes to Cafe Oto with me so....
Rieu was an education, but for the life of me I cannot see why he's so popular? There was no expense spared on the live production, of course, it was a sell out too. It was like the whole town was there.
But why??? cheesy classical music goes to Hollywood big time, even more cheesy sentimentality and romanticism gone berserk. But the age range of the audience was interesting, all ages, that was surprising.
Everyone was crying, dancing, singing along (I even had tears in my eyes at one point, probably because my beer had run out) but all I can think of is that he gives people what they want, sometimes all they want is a bit of uncomplicated fun and something that's not difficult to appreciate, and is a whole family experience.
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