More Windows bloatware

[OneWorld]

Most people in 'democracies' have been willing to sacrifice (or are unconcerned about sacrificing) their 'privacy' for the sake of the digital revolution and what it's brought them.

Equally most people in democracies and the governments thereof have chosen to ignore the human rights abuses of the totalitarian regime in China because of all the stuff the Chinese sell us. The situation of the Uighurs and what's being done to them is appalling. Christians who refuse to be part of the state-approved churches face a very, very difficult time. Then there's Hong Kong... Governments and left-leaning individuals murmur their disapproval, but who in this Forum has seriously considered not buying a piece of kit because it's made in China?

Well, I for one will state why I am happy to buy from China.

1. The Uighurs. Before the clampdown by the Chinese authorities, Xinjiang was on the list of countries the UK Foreign Office considered too dangerous to visit. The ISiS affiliated terrorist group ETIP terrorised the area, their intent was to to establish a caliphate. There were cars driven into crowds of people, bombs on trains, unveiled women had their faces slashed in the streets. The authorities chose to deal with this by rounding up people and giving them two choices, assimilate and become productive members of society or get locked up. Now, quite authoritarian, I agree, but how did ‘The West’ deal with terrorism. We illegally invaded Iraq and in the process killed 250,000 innocent civilians, that’s 250,000 ordinary people like you and I, who according to Donald Rumsfeld, were just ‘Collateral damage’ surely one of the most perverse justifications for the slaughter of 250,000+ innocents.

Now, how many Uighur have the Chinese killed.

Peter Snowden is now in exile in Russia, for what crime? For telling the world about the Shooting fish in a barrel murders of innocent Afghanis, at one wedding celebration, 46 celebrants murdered because a US helicopter patrol didn’t want to return to base without being able to claim a kill.

It is claimed that Chinese have used enforced sterilisation on Uighur women, hmmm, then how come the Uighur population has doubled in the last decade. And the woman that made the claim has been described as ‘An attention seeking nutter’ by her sister.

Who made the claims about the ‘treatment of the Uighars’ well that happens to be a group of activists hoping to get political asylum in the West encouraged by some American bloke flogging a book. But, whatever, fact is now the Xinjiang region is now safe and thriving, the area’s population have risen above their circumstances and out of poverty.

As for the alleged imprisonment, well maybe the Chinese have been copying the West again, imprisonment without trial - Abu Grabe? Guantanamo Bay? Extra-ordinary rendition, water boarding, sexual humiliation, beatings(Babu Masah?war crimes (the accusations made against Australian SAS in the alleged murder of Afghani boys) the list goes on and on, napalm, the Mei Lai Massacre etc etc

Hong Kong. During the riots in Hong Kong, the more militant protestors used cross-bows and petrol bombs against the police. It was found the more militant factions were extremely well funded. An American man was recognised as he got onto a plane leaving Hong Kong, he was recognised as one of the individuals seen whipping up anti-government trouble during protests in Venezuela, where money was handed out to protesters to go and cause trouble. This individual has connections with a US ‘pro-democracy’ group, funded in part by………the CIA. Sometime after, it was noticed there was increased activity regarding parcels coming from the USA, these parcels were intercepted by Hong Kong authorities and found to contain guns.

Consider this. During the protests in Hong Kong, where as I said cross-bows and petrol bombs were used, how many protestors died? Now compare that with protestors that died storming the Capitol during Biden’s inauguration, six if I remember rightly.

Riddle me this. The USA is the beacon of democracy. But the USA has 4 times the number of people in jail when compared to China. How many people in the USA have died in police custody, last year I believe the figure to be in the 1000’s I compared the figures for China and they are a fraction of the US figures. During the protests in the USA an Australian journalist lost an eye after being hit by police, an old chap ended up in a coma after being knocked to the ground by police and the crack of his head hitting the pavement was so loud it was like the crack of cannon fire.

Is China a flawless and impeccable country beyond compare, no way, but I think that when we in the West demonise China, well if only we could bottle and sell hypocrisy, if there were a market for it, we would be rich beyond compare.

Some time ago I listened to a discussion between a uk minister and a leading Chinese official. The uk minister called out China in regard to human rights and the Chinese official replied “Your industrial revolution developed over 100 years, we have done the same in a few decades, we are a work in progress, yes we have much to do, but, have you ever tried to feed 1,4 billion people?”

Back to the Uighars. Sometime ago
I was listening to an interview on the BBC World Service, with a member of a Uighar dance troupe that were touring China to spread Uighar culture through the whole nation. The lady was asked “Isn’t that a bit awkward for you, considering the situation in Xinjiang?” The dancer replied
“Not at all, in fact we were enthusiastically welcomed everywhere we’re performed, in fact we look forward to touring again. However, ironically, we do have some trepidation about when return to Xinjiang for our end of tour show. We fear the militant terrorist faction might attack us, but nonetheless we shall not let them stop us as we are proud of our culture and will dance where ever we can”

It occurs to me that China is set to eclipse the USA, and let’s face it, anyone who is top of the heap is reluctant to be de-throned, the USA cannot bomb the Chinese into submission, but as we all know, the pen is mightier than the sword, so a relentless demonisation is unleashed in the media. I went to China to see for myself and found a country nothing like our media describes. And ask myself, since the end of WW2, how many wars have the Chinese started and how many have the West been in. How many George Floyds have there been in China. I think before we criticise China, we need swill our own stables out first. Typed on my Huawei that does not have Google sticking its nose into my business every 5 minutes,

[Drew Stephenson]

Wow. That is a lot of whataboutism and selective reporting to fit into one post.
None of which addresses Mike's point that we all have moral choices to make all the time and that convenience generally trumps conscience.

[Drongoloid]

There are millions of unfortunate people 'in transit' across the globe. They come from all kinds of ethnic groups, religions and cultural backgrounds - they will all have a different story. The one thing that links them is that they are all escaping dictatorships with the hope of reaching a democracy. The queues into the USA, Canada, UK etc. are long. The ones into North Korea and China and Russia are short. Why is that?

Still, keep up the good work 'One World'. Your efforts will not have gone unnoticed in Zhongnanhai; I'm serious!

[shufflebeat]

...and that convenience generally trumps conscience.

Inertia rather than convenience is probably more accurate. Most people just don't think about it, like they don't read the T&C when they click "accept".

It's not important yet and when it is important it will be really obvious but it will happen at an individual level and no-one outside the immediate vicinity will know or care.

The Good Lady Wife is less discerning than I am about to whom she assigns rights and privileges in this area. She is constantly inundated with "offers" to relieve her of her hard-earned for spurious reasons. That's enough for me to feel justified in my reluctance.

I'm not a natural tin-foil hat wearer but I have witnessed the abuse of power being facilitated by the abuse of data so it's not an abstract concept for me, just good housekeeping.

[Drew Stephenson]

Indeed, it's often said that security and convenience are opposite ends of the same spectrum.

[Dynamic Mike]

Most people in 'democracies' have been willing to sacrifice (or are unconcerned about sacrificing) their 'privacy' for the sake of the digital revolution and what it's brought them.

Convenience usual wins-out over Conscience.

I struggle to think of a single advantage of the digital revolution that couldn't have been implemented equally well with everyone's privacy respected. Asking people to opt-in is great, even offering a way to opt-out would be acceptable. But I know from altercations with companies sharing my data for junk mail that if they delete your data, then it's automatically restored with the next data batch they process. So in order for them not to share your details they have to store your details as someone who's opted out of data sharing! The digital revolution is driven almost exclusively for marketing, very little is for the good of humanity. To think otherwise is probably naive. My recent 'petty gripe' about Sainsburys is proof enough for me.

I even have my doubts about the supposed 'benefits' to society. What I see is a generation of digital junkies who are unhappier, less capable, more self-obssessed, more insecure egotists than any generation in modern times. People who think their function in life is to post a doctored photoshopped journal on social media of the life that all the targetted advertising leads them to believe they're supposed to be leading. Sadly 'social' media is populated by young impressionable people with neither the intelligence nor the life experiences that allow them to distinguish the fact from the funded fiction posted by morons*.

If you're happy with all this & see things differently, that's fine with me, by all means enjoy it. Honestly, if you think the benefits outweigh the loss of privacy that's your decision & I respect it. If I have a contract with someone, say the BBC, Netflix, Amazon etc. then I'm happy with them holding data too. It's the lack of choice regarding data retention that concerns me. Sat-nav only needs to know where you are & where you're headed to function. It doesn't need to retain everywhere you've been for all eternity.

You're right that convenience usually wins out over conscience because doing nothing is easier than doing something about it. But the fact that we don't feel able to stop the inevitable doesn't make it right. Thankfully sometimes conscience wins out otherwise we'd still have slavery, which I'm sure was extremely convenient. Climate change is another inconvenient trend which was once seen as progress that it's probably best we reverse.

*Also commonly referred to as 'influencers'. The clue's in the name as to their motivation.

[Mike Stranks]

1) Ref: OneWorld: I'll never cease to be amazed at what people choose to believe despite all the learned evidence to the contrary...

2) Ref: Dynamic Mike: To equate the 'digital revolution' solely with Facebook/Twitter/Instagram/Tik-Tok and their negative impacts (with which I agree) seems to be taking a very narrow view of it and ignoring all the many benefits that the manipulation of 1s and 0s has brought us.

I'm done here... we're in 'Ah! Yes, but...' territory now which inevitable ends up being a vortex.

Post edited for clarification after some responses received

[ef37a]

I do not have access to the deep insights to Chinese and US societies that Mr World seems to enjoy but I can report the findings of my grandson who spent six months in Tien Jin as part of his Mandarin graduate course (yes, he graduated in that and Spanish)

He told us there were no gay people, no disabled people and every family was a 'nuclear' heterosexual unit of "1.4 kids". Almost no dissent or debate and he was 'shushed' many times and told "we don't talk about that".

He never wants to go back and has found a teaching post in English, French and Spanish here, near The Smoke'.

Dave.

[shufflebeat]

1) I'll never cease to be amazed at what people choose to believe despite all the learned evidence to the contrary...

Specifics?

My experience is pretty much in keeping with DM's, although I'm less dismissive of the generational differences as intelligence based. We live in different environments where the skills we've acquired (usually by making mistakes and learning from them, or not) over time are not longer as relevant and which don't equip us well for the new. However, the point that most of the "digital revolution" is marketing led looks like a strong argument and suggests that much of the information gathered will not be learned from in any evolutionarily valuable way.

In the meantime, I don't have to outrun the puma, I just need to outrun you.

[shufflebeat]

...there were no gay people, no disabled people and every family was a 'nuclear' heterosexual unit of "1.4 kids". Almost no dissent or debate and he was 'shushed' many times and told "we don't talk about that".

Sounds like Conservative (ideology, not party) heaven. Plenty of folks pushing for that kind of "social harmony" (major chords only) here as well.

Let's not make it easy.

[Mike Stranks]

1) I'll never cease to be amazed at what people choose to believe despite all the learned evidence to the contrary...

Specifics?

That was a reference to the 'Don't knock the Chinese' post... not in any way related to DM's thoughts... and I've now edited my post to make that clear.

[Dynamic Mike]

On reflection I should have said a lack of education rather than intelligence.

I'm not knocking the digital revolution per se, the benefits have been massive, I just think it could have been achieved without personal privacy being the main casualty.

[Drew Stephenson]

I'm not knocking the digital revolution per se, the benefits have been massive, I just think it could have been achieved without personal privacy being the main casualty.

As usual we're in 'follow the money' territory here. A lot of people in the US have been pushing for some basic online/digital privacy laws for years, but congress and the senate are awash with campaign dollars from vested interests who don't want them. There's no sign of that changing anytime soon. This environment makes the US a good place for online companies to incorporate, so that helps them be successful, powering the dominance of US companies in the english-speaking online world.
Which then means more campaign dollars...

But on the other hand, as an amateur musician the digital revolution has enabled me to learn, record, mix, master, distribute, advertise and build my listener base for little to no money at all.
In a pre-digital world that simply wouldn't have happened.
I can also talk to my cousins in the US and my friends in Australia, and you here, for free.
And I can work from home during a pandemic.
And I have access to worlds of knowledge and know-how for just about every problem under the sun just a click away via wikipedia, youtube and news sites.
I can get just about anything I want delivered direct to my door, normally in about 48 hours, without needing to go into town.
etc etc etc

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

[Drew Stephenson]

What I see is a generation of digital junkies who are unhappier, less capable, more self-obssessed, more insecure egotists than any generation in modern times. People who think their function in life is to post a doctored photoshopped journal on social media of the life that all the targetted advertising leads them to believe they're supposed to be leading. Sadly 'social' media is populated by young impressionable people with neither the intelligence nor the life experiences that allow them to distinguish the fact from the funded fiction posted by morons*.

Firstly, the most self-obsessed, insecure egotist that I've ever encountered has only recently stopped being president of the united states. I don't think we can lay that on the kids.
For what it's worth I don't really recognise the rest of this description either. The millenials and gen Z I work with are no less educated, intelligent, articulate or astute than the boomers and gen X I work with. And, just like the generations that came before them, they have their own culture that is neither understood by or represented accurately by the mainstream media of the generations before.
What they are though, in a way I don't remember my peers being, is cynical, jaded and bitter about being lectured by a generation who've taken advantage of a host of benefits (free university education, final salary pensions, free dental care, a realistic minimum wage) that they've then whipped away from their children and grand-children. And I can't say I blame them for that, especially when you lob in the climate crisis (that they didn't create but will have to live with) as well.
Finally, for now , if these generations are poorly educated, who do we have to blame for that? The kids receiving the education or the generations who designed and implemented the education system they're on the end of.

TL:DR
The kids are alright.

[OneWorld]

I do not have access to the deep insights to Chinese and US societies that Mr World seems to enjoy but I can report the findings of my grandson who spent six months in Tien Jin as part of his Mandarin graduate course (yes, he graduated in that and Spanish)

He told us there were no gay people, no disabled people and every family was a 'nuclear' heterosexual unit of "1.4 kids". Almost no dissent or debate and he was 'shushed' many times and told "we don't talk about that".

He never wants to go back and has found a teaching post in English, French and Spanish here, near The Smoke'.

Dave.

"I do not have access to the deep insights to Chinese and US societies" Seems like you spent too long looking at the Sun, not good, it blinds you.

BTW - I too spent time in China, and I too spent time in Spanish speaking countries - Nicaragua, El Salvador, Costa Rica, Honduras and Colombia. Whilst I was in Costa Rica I was told before going to Nicaragua that I should should not go there, that it was "An evil communist totalitarian regime, I will see babies heads on spears and other horrid things" I was also threatened at gunpoint, for being a commie loving traitor.

And guess what, when I got to Nicaragua, I found they were some of the friendliest, hard working, compassionate people I have ever encountered.

Of course that doesn't align with the Fox News/Murdoch propaganda, but guess what, I don't care, I only know what I see, not what I am told.

I went to China, and as I said in my text "Is China perfect? - no" but can a woman walk the streets at night unmolested - yes, are teenagers getting stabbed in the 100's? no, are the streets littered with the homeless? no, are ex-soldiers who have fought for their country abandoned, suffering PTSD etc - no

I learned this much on my travels, co-operation and dialogue kills less people than conflict and making enemies, enemies are no use to anyone, they don't buy our goods.

And Tien Jin?

https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Tourism-g ... tions.html

Looks awful doesn't it? When in China did your son see any police kneeling on the neck of a detainee, squeezing the life out of that detainee?

And here's something for you to chew on - which country has had the police force that is responsible for its capital city described as 'Institutionally Racist' and 'Institutionally Corrupt' ? You don't need deep insight to know that

[Drew Stephenson]

And you don't need deep insight to know that the Chinese regime would never allow for such an investigation to take place.
No-one is saying China is all bad anymore than they are saying the west is all good.
But I think I'll follow Mike at this point.

[MOF]

From what I've seen in reality cop shows, if you've turned your phone off in the UK, you're probably hiding a body.

Or run out of juice?

[shufflebeat]

...I think I'll follow Mike at this point.

Oh no, not that old one! Name your Mike, Dynamic or Stranks.

(Worse than bloody Johnson with that slippery side-talk).

by the way.

[Dynamic Mike]

For what it's worth I don't really recognise the rest of this description either. The millenials and gen Z I work with are no less educated, intelligent, articulate or astute than the boomers and gen X I work with.

What they are though, in a way I don't remember my peers being, is cynical, jaded and bitter about being lectured by a generation who've taken advantage of a host of benefits (free university education, final salary pensions, free dental care, a realistic minimum wage) that they've then whipped away from their children and grand-children. And I can't say I blame them for that, especially when you lob in the climate crisis (that they didn't create but will have to live with) as well.

I'm willing to accept my apparaisal may not be applied universally but it's based on my personal observations. Just short of 90% of long term sickness I have to manage is for people aged 20-40, not one of whom has a physical illness. They may well be educated, intelligent, articulate, astute but they haven't been taught resilience because they're not exposed to it. The current social & education systems don't give people effective tools to deal with disappointment and failure. I have genuinely had med certs from GP's submitted for 'sadness' & 'tiredness'. Meanwhile the majority of older staff turn up day after day, no matter how crap they feel, no matter what personal stress they're suffering, and not only put a full shift in but try to cover the workload of those who haven't turned up. YMMV, & I'm happy for you if it does.

Every generation blames the one before. We may have had free university education, but the trade off was only a tiny percentage of us got one. Final salary pensions have disappeared for pretty much anyone under 60. Dental care is free (or part-funded if you're earning) & dentists are no longer paid a tariff to fill perfectly good teeth. If you grew up in the 70's & have a mouth full of fillings, go figure. Even an unrealistic minimum wage is one step better than we had in 80's. A guy I knew in the early 80's raised a health & safety issue at work & was told if he looked over his shoulder he'd see 3.5 million unemployed people willing to take his place. It was hardly a bed of roses, a zero hours contract is bad but still better than no contract at all.

The climate crisis was likely triggered by the industrial revolution, I won't be holding my hands up to that one. And for those of us who lived through the cold war recycling wasn't always our major concern. I think the anxiety caused by being taught in school how to deal with a four minute warning of a nuclear strike probably trumps that caused by not getting enough facebook 'likes'.

[Eddy Deegan]

I think this is has developed into an interesting conversation but it's rather off-topic now. Might it be better to spawn a dedicated thread for matters Chinese in the lounge as opposed to continuing it in the Windows Music forum?

In other words, please restrict further additions to this thread such that they relate to the original topic.

Thank you!