MIDI 2.0!?

[muzines]

Yay for MIDI 2.0!

Now we'll be back to the days with endless articles on MIDI, with message formats, and type-in listings for your very own personal computer to experiment with the new-fangled MIDI byte things...

[Agharta]

Yay for MIDI 2.0!
Now we'll be back to the days with endless articles on MIDI, with message formats, and type-in listings for your very own personal computer to experiment with the new-fangled MIDI byte things...

Maybe we'll see a new Atari in time for MIDI 2.0!
I wrote a basic app for my Atari ST that created Philip Glass like riffs.
All very basic and probably written in BASIC!

[BigRedX]

The PS2 style port for MIDI seems to be a Yamaha thing. The Tenori-On has it too. Nothing special about the connector, just a compact way of getting enough pins for MIDI in and out in a pre-existing form-factor.

Personally I think MIDI should go back to using XLR connectors as originally intended. All these nasty non-locking computer style connectors are simply not robust enough for gigging use.

[ef37a]

The PS2 style port for MIDI seems to be a Yamaha thing. The Tenori-On has it too. Nothing special about the connector, just a compact way of getting enough pins for MIDI in and out in a pre-existing form-factor.

Personally I think MIDI should go back to using XLR connectors as originally intended. All these nasty non-locking computer style connectors are simply not robust enough for gigging use.

PS2 is knocking on! XLR seems overkill and DIN is being dropped like a hot brick, mainly due to size and cost I would imagine? I do however agree that it is a superb connector.

My vote stays with RJ45. They are cheap enough that you can keep 1/2 doz spares. The latch is vulnerable but you can get special boots that protect it and stop it snagging and surely someone can come up with a snap on 2 piece ABS cover that has a button to push the latch?

I think the very LAST thing we need is yet another bloody connector!

Dave.

[Hugh Robjohns]

It will need to be cheap, and not easily confused with anything else to avoid damage. So while the RJ45 makes the first requirement, it fails the second.

Perhaps RJ11s (telephone type) connectors would be a safer option?

I love the idea of XLRs for MIDI on gigging equipment, but that fails on both counts and it's bulky, so perhaps mini-XLRs would be okay, although the expense probably rules them out too.

H

[BigRedX]

PS2 is knocking on! XLR seems overkill and DIN is being dropped like a hot brick, mainly due to size and cost I would imagine? I do however agree that it is a superb connector.

My vote stays with RJ45. They are cheap enough that you can keep 1/2 doz spares. The latch is vulnerable but you can get special boots that protect it and stop it snagging and surely someone can come up with a snap on 2 piece ABS cover that has a button to push the latch?

I think the very LAST thing we need is yet another bloody connector!

Dave.

The problem with RJ45 is not so much the connector (although even with the boot the latch is prone to failure and once that happens you find the connector no longer seats securely in the socket), but the type of cables associated with most of them.

Line6 have chosen to use RJ45 connectors and Cat5e cables to join their effects units and foot pedals together, and unfortunately IME they are simply not fit for purpose. Standard cables fail in less than a month of 2-3 gigs and rehearsals a week, and the expensive Van-Damme coilable cat5e cable lasted just over a years before it stopped being coilable, would not long lie flat and shortly after than failed. When I upgraded from a BassPod to a Helix I deliberately went for the floor unit so I was no long dependant on unreliable cables or connectors.

Computer cables and connectors are fine at home or in the office where they are rarely moved or unplugged, but in a gigging situation I have yet to find anything as robust as XLRs couple with high quality flexible screen cable.

[Folderol]

The most reliable connectors I've come across are industrial ones.

Pros.
Screw terminal internally (so field repairable)
Excellent cable retention

Cons.
Not screened
Very Bulky

They are this type.

There is also a 6 pin version in the same footprint, but that doesn't come with screw terminals.

[ef37a]

It will need to be cheap, and not easily confused with anything else to avoid damage. So while the RJ45 makes the first requirement, it fails the second.

Perhaps RJ11s (telephone type) connectors would be a safer option?

I love the idea of XLRs for MIDI on gigging equipment, but that fails on both counts and it's bulky, so perhaps mini-XLRs would be okay, although the expense probably rules them out too.

H

Don't understand "not easily confused with anything else"? ALL XLR tend to look the same and they can be one of a dozen plus mics, lines, AES or, as some would have it MIDI!

RJ11?!! Wee and very fiddly (and might be confused with the pub's master socket?)

Cables? I have found UTP patch cable (not solid core) to be pretty robust and I again point out that this stuff is cheapo! Look upon the cables as a rather consumable item?

I don't gig so this is just my experience knocking about with the stuff but there has to be some sort of connector and the choices are limited. The metal bodied, locking 'B' DIN seems to have all but disappeared? Mind you, making up DIN cables is not for the 55plus!

Dave.

[N i g e l]

Im not keen on latching connectors, when I trip on a cable, I want it to come out rather than drag the equipment off the desk/chair/amp !


The majority of future MIDI connectors will probably be USB C ? Laptop/phone/etc direct to equipment.

My cameras manufacturer has so much confidence in USB C that they provide a plastic widget that clicks into the body and acts as a support for the connector.

[ef37a]

been a hot debate ever since kit was made Nige'. Do you protect against an accidental shut down or having a 50W valve head on yer bonce?

Many would say you should not run cables where/so as they can be tripped over?

Dave.

[Drew Stephenson]

Many would say you should not run cables where/so as they can be tripped over?

Dave.

Many haven't played arse-end pubs with one working plug socket on the other side of the pub.
Oh and you can't unplug the tv next to the stage because people will be watching the football later on... (true story)

[Eddy Deegan]

The MID 2.0 spec, as far as I know, defines the protocol but says nothing about the physical connectors so I suspect unless the manufacturers come to some agreement on that aspect of things there may be various physical connection types.

One would hope that they standardise but we'll see. I haven't checked any of the updates lately.

I am quite excited by the prospect of MIDI 2.0 however, to the point where I'm considering researching the technical aspects of implementing my own VSTs in native code as I really want to create my own MIDI plugin for performance and jamming purposes and 2.0 looks to provide an extremely rich environment for doing that.

[ef37a]

Many would say you should not run cables where/so as they can be tripped over?

Dave.

Many haven't played arse-end pubs with one working plug socket on the other side of the pub.
Oh and you can't unplug the tv next to the stage because people will be watching the football later on... (true story)

Done a lot of pubs in me yoof Drew (and you were never sure what the mains outlet would be. Kids got it easy these 13A days) but I take you point. However it will be YOU they sue if someone breaks their head!

Dave.

[Drew Stephenson]

I know, i'm older and wiser now...

[N i g e l]

The MID 2.0 spec, as far as I know, defines the protocol but says nothing about the physical connectors

.....or the electrics. MIDI 1.0 defined the electronics, as a current loop & frequency.

It would be nice if the MIDI 2.0 basic isolated connection ran a bit faster to get round the beat 1 bottle neck, especially as theres more than 16 channels now [!]

or is that 2020-30yrs thinking rather than thinking ahead to 2020+30yrs.

2050, it will probably be brain implants and AI by then !

[arkieboy]

There's lots of good stuff in here from my brief reading of reports of the spec (note the caveats!) but it feels to me like the main point is to ensure that hardware doesn't just die in the face of AU/VST plugins. Bidirectional communication, interface profiles and the like will ensure your DAW can control and snapshot your entire rig from your keyboard and mouse. And its timely too - we're still in love with our hardware right now but give it five years without MIDI2.0 and I think we'd see hardware become niche.

Alternate controllers - like guitar - are well served by the update so naturally I'm looking forward to how it all pans out ...

[Wonks]

I know, i'm older and wiser now...

Well, you got 50% right there.

[Drew Stephenson]

I know, i'm older and wiser now...

Well, you got 50% right there.

Specific circumstances only. Limitations and restrictions apply. This statement is not a guarantee.

[N i g e l]

Alternate controllers - like guitar - are well served by the update so naturally I'm looking forward to how it all pans out ...

one of the videos I watched was less than complimentary about the current MIDI over Bluetooth BLE, stating delays of >10ms, so I was wondering if they will bring out somthing better for the likes of keytars and jamstik type devices or even for phone interfacing ?

[The Elf]

I'm looking forward to hardware/software that will declare the capabilities of old kit on its behalf to open it up to MIDI 2. Gotta be done!

[arkieboy]

Alternate controllers - like guitar - are well served by the update so naturally I'm looking forward to how it all pans out ...

one of the videos I watched was less than complimentary about the current MIDI over Bluetooth BLE, stating delays of >10ms, so I was wondering if they will bring out somthing better for the likes of keytars and jamstik type devices or even for phone interfacing ?

(I was thinking more about the support for pitchbend and other controllers per note).

I'm not sure current bluetooth specs match music making requirements. 'Stream audio to your headphones so it doesn't look odd while you're watching a movie' doesn't sound good enough for a midi controller. I think we're going to see lots of USB connectors in our future ...

[ef37a]

Since 'Blue Tooth was mentioned I did a little experiment last night (c: 12:00) .
BT I don't think will have low enough latency. (ever?) although I understand the sound quality can be very good these days? I therefore wondered how my wireless Microsoft keyboard* would fair?

It is linked via dongle to an old desktop that drives the printer in my living room, PC spec...

AMD Ath' ll x2 250. Two cores no HT, ram 4G(!) 240G Samsung SSD. Soundcard for test? Don't laugh...Behringer UFO202 as I could not be arsed to diss' my KA6 in the other room. I set it up with the demo of Pianoteq and, flip me! 192 samples, 4.4mS as the lowest setting using Windows Audio (Exclusive Mode. ??) Surely that will crackle like a ******? Not a bit of it, the Blues demo played out sweet as a nut and even my most manic wiping across the trackpad just made 'piano' noises. The CPU hit maxed 30% the PC was doing nothing else much.

The box for the 202 has "Ultra Low Latency" emblazend upon it but I always took that as a bit of Bellringer's puff, never checked it before. Of course, the AI is very limited (but very cheap) and only 16 bits and it does not quite make best DR use of those but is easily quiet enough for most purposed such as vinyl/tape dubbing.

So it would seem wireless operation for MIDI 2.0 is very possible. Certainly with a more powerful PC and modern AI it can be as quick as you like?

For my next trick I looped the ins to outs and hooked the 202 to my Lenovo T510 hoping this would solve my internal recording problem. It did and did not, as I feared it might, scream in a feedback loop. Indeed, if there is amild problem it is that the average recording level for R3 is a bit low at -30dB fs with peaks to -20db but I can live with that.

I am going to email Behringer and ask if a 24 bit version might be under development?

*There are no model markings on this kbd save "Microsoft" I got it on offer from Sainsburys some years ago. I dare say Googling *microsoft wireless keyboard* will get a result? Very reliable (trackpad not great but you can always plug in a mouse for fiddly stuff) and the two bog s alkaline AAAs have been in it since 24/1/17!

https://www.currys.co.uk/gbuk/computing ... 5-pdt.html

Dave.

[The Elf]

I use something similar to that keyboard for my Raspberry Pi. It's a Rii K22. Don't know if the similarites are more than skin deep:

[ef37a]

Hello M r Elf, I have two questions.
I have used the Msft and other wireless keyboards for years and a Tranzport briefly. Now, we are always being to that "Wireless" on a PC will mess with audio but does only apply to wireless internet controllers? I certainly have never had any audio problems I could put down to dongle connected wireless kit.

2) The Microsoft kbd is great but lacks a Prntscrn key. Is there a keystroke combination that can work that?

Dave.