The All-New Behringer Keyboards 'n' Stuff Thread

[BJG145]

I think they should have called this the Behringer MisStep!! Geddit?

...I'll get my coat...

[ManFromGlass]

The logo doesn’t say Swing, it says Sexing.
Can’t unsee that. . . . Yes I’m wearing my glasses.

[muzines]

Update: And Behringer's response via Musictribe:

"Since various magazines and Arturia have publicly called us out over the launch of our Swing MIDI Controller, we would like to respond and share some facts around the principles of competition and clear up some misconceptions.

Competition is a highly effective tool to drive innovation by empowering Customers to make their best choices and force manufacturers to constantly reinvent themselves. Innovation means progress and this happens on many levels, whether it relates to customer experience, functionality or cost efficiencies etc.
There are 4 established marketing strategies: market leader, market challenger, market follower and market nichers. Here is a great article: https://aytm.com/blog/brand-positioning ... ge-part-3/

The competition law was designed to avoid companies creating a market monopoly and stifle innovation, which would be detrimental to the rights of the Customers to expect better offerings. The law was specifically designed to encourage everyone to fiercely compete, even when it means over the same functionality and design, provided intellectual property such as utility (functional) and design patents as well as trademarks etc. are respected.

How many Fender Stratocaster or Gibson Les Paul clones are out there in the guitar world and how many SM58 clones are available? How many cars or mobile phones look alike? It is not surprising that Gibson recently lost a substantial legal case trying to prevent others from making V-shape guitars or Fender, who lost all trademark cases related to their Stratocaster design.

The reason is simple: the law encourages competition and provides maximum freedom for companies to engage head-on, all for the benefit of the Customer.

We are spending large amounts of resources on innovation, which is reflected in products such as X32, XR18, Flow, DDM4000, etc. This made us the global market leader for analog and digital mixers and over the years we have built an extensive patent portfolio:
https://community.musictribe.com/pages/ ... l-property

However, we also clearly choose to follow successful brands and products, while adding more features and/or competing on price. Much of our innovation is invisible to the Customer as it relates to our highly advanced and automated design and manufacturing processes and for that we are spending hundreds of millions of US$.

For this reason, we have become strategic partners with Microsoft, Siemens, Adobe and many other Tier 1 companies as we are pushing for extreme digitization and automation.

The follower marketing strategy is a very common business model in any industry, which is enabled by law to encourage competition. With our new Swing MIDI Controller, we followed an established concept, but of course wrote our own firmware with added functionality. However, these unique features will only come to life when we launch our free DAW.

The free Music Tribe DAW will form the heart of an incredible eco-system, where all our controllers, synthesizers and drum machines etc. will integrate seamlessly, thus dramatically improve connectivity and workflow. This will make it incredibly easy for our Customers to create, edit and share their music.

Only our upcoming controllers will feature total integration with our synthesizers, drum machines, digital mixers and other Music Tribe equipment, while also offering standard functionality with all 3rd party products.

For anyone familiar with the industry landscape, Arturia has been cloned for years (Worlde MiniMidi, etc.), while the company has also been “borrowing” from others with their VST replicas of legendary hardware synths, open-source code from Mutable Instruments, the “Expressive Touche” controller or the registration of known “DX7” and “Synthi” marks. Equally, our own analog Xenyx mixers and many other products have been widely cloned.

We will absolutely continue to deliver innovative products but also follow our competitors as we expect our products to be cloned - fair play.

We are very cautious when it comes to our follower approach and employ expert intellectual property firms to ensure our products stay within the boundaries of the law; we are committed to never intentionally infringe on other companies’ intellectual property.

Many years ago, we were entangled in bitter lawsuits with Mackie and Pioneer, which we all won. But we also recently lost a case against Yamaha in China related to a simple fader knob design that involved a design patent we were unfortunately not aware of. We changed the design, we will pay the fees and move on. Notably, Yamaha themselves were sued by Dr. Dre over their headphone designs (https://www.cnet.com/news/dr-dre-sues-y ... eadphones/) or entangled in other legal matters (https://www.gov.uk/government/news/musi ... tition-law), which clearly shows how competitive business is. The heated Apple versus Samsung disputes are a prime example.

It is our Purpose and Mission to empower Customers who don’t have deep pockets and provide them with the best possible equipment at fair prices. We do understand that we are a fierce competitor and at times controversial as we’re relentlessly push the envelope.

We would like to thank all our Customers who have supported us over the past 30 years. We are absolutely committed to continue to deliver the best possible products at the lowest possible cost."

Not exactly confidence inspiring, that response, is it..?

Business as usual, then...

[zenguitar]

That just highlights the bit that Uli can never grasp.

It may be posted by him and in his name, but it is clearly written by his legal team and reads as an opening statement to the court. He's letting everyone know that he's got all his legal ducks in a row.

However, whilst the law may not have anything to say on the subject; some things leave a bad taste in your mouth that no amount of sugar can disguise.

If Uli were here now (and I remember when it was proposed that he would have a Q&A here on the forums that he ultimately pulled out of), there is something I would love to ask him...

"If you are so confident in the designers, engineers, and manufacturing of Music Group; why can't you resist demonstrating your lack of confidence in your team by reverting to blatant copying?"

Andy

[Dan LB]

At this point I'm seriously considering converting the 2600 price into something towards the cost of an UDO Super 6

It's the product of a lengthy development process by some great people, and it would be unfair on them to blacklist it because of poor subsequent decisions from the company boss.

I disagree.

Indeed it is the product of a lengthy development process by some great people, but all of that has been undermined by the company's business practises.

I think think the decision made by the company to issue this blatant rip-off should be held against them. This sort of practise needs to be called out, and what better way than hitting them in the pocket. If Eddy decides to vote with his feet it will be a small moral victory, but if more people would do the same it might make them reconsider.

Just because they have released some great products recently, based on past designs that people want to see being made again, does not give them the right to blatantly rip-off current products which have had massive R&D costs ploughed into them. That is not fair competition and Behringer have a huge history of such conduct. They are basking in the light of their newly created image and are taking the absolute piss! I don't buy into the BS by Uli (or his lawyers) as quoted in desmond's post above - innovation has been doing just fine without companies blatantly ripping each other off.*

Eddy, if I were you, I would not entertain the shoddy business practises of Uli Behringer and head straight for that UDO Super 6**

Dan

*Yes, this happens to a degree, but not on the scale that Uli Behringer does it.

**I'm biased because I have never lusted after a 2600, but that Super 6 though........

[VOLOVIA]

A marginal and slightly unrelated comment... when I read businesses addressing customers with the capital C "Customers", as here in the statement, it already makes my blood curdle...

it reminds me when in the mid-eighties they introduced 'that' word in the London Underground instead of 'passengers'... I used to think: give me an alternative tube network and I will become a 'customer'. Thatcherite-speak...

[Dan LB]

Equally, our own analog Xenyx mixers and many other products have been widely cloned.

By who? Mackie?

We are very cautious when it comes to our follower approach and employ expert intellectual property firms to ensure our products stay within the boundaries of the law; we are committed to never intentionally infringe on other companies’ intellectual property.

Cautious within the bounds of the law. There is nothing morally or ethically 'right' going on here IMHO

we also recently lost a case against Yamaha in China related to a simple fader knob design that involved a design patent we were unfortunately not aware of.

Not aware of the patent maybe but they proceeded to try and copy the design.......

In summary: I think if Behringer sought to come up with their own designs instead of 'borrowing' (to use Uli's words), they would be in a much better position considering how the company has somewhat distanced itself from the bad reputation it once had - and that distance is mostly down to the launch of the X32. The current shenanigans are only dragging the company back into the mud.

But still there'll be people on YouTube saying how amazing they are and how they've knocked it out of the park with the new Swing and to be fair, you can't argue with where the company stands today - ethics aside.

[Dave B]

That statement can be summed up as "legally we can do it, so we will and screw anyone who disagrees with us".

It didn't address the actual problem, it merely laid out (as remarked above) the legal framework that allows them to do it.

It is one thing to claim that you are bringing back old keyboards that are no longer in production, it's another thing to try to screw over a smaller company with a current product.

I had heard that Uli has no shame. This seems to support it.

[BJG145]

Arturia has been cloned for years (Worlde MiniMidi, etc.), while the company has also been “borrowing” from others with their VST replicas of legendary hardware synths, open-source code from Mutable Instruments, the “Expressive Touché” controller

I don't quite get this; they seem to be accusing Arturia of ripping off the Touché, but all I can find is stuff about Expressive E collaborating with Arturia to create Touché presets for their VST synthesisers...? I don't think there's much shame in adopting open-source elements in commercial products either; it happens all the time.

https://www.arturia.com/support/touchedbygrace

It's a Trump-like response, basically spreading doubt and disinformation.

[Arpangel]

Behringer need to be careful here "they now" produce products of comparable quality to more expensive makes, and their equipment spans a whole spectrum of users, from amateur to pro use, live, and in the studio. It is now OK to see Behringer in places where once it would have been avoided. They are now a manufacture in the own right.
As is often the case, things can get taken beyond what is "reasonable" and attitudes assumed, as we happily buy and not question a lot of their "replica" products.
But as a manufacturer they cannot ignore the feelings of their customers at this time, and their response definitely gives the message that firstly, as long as we can get away with it we will, secondly, we’ve taken no notice at all of our customers views.
If you carry on like this people will vote with their wallets and go elsewhere, you’re dealing with musicians, engineers, producers, all creative, sensitive people, we think about things like a moral stance, ethical production values. Please don’t think you’ve got us over a barrel regarding price alone, and I’d think very carefully about modifying you’re policies to embrace a more sympathetic attitude to smaller manufacturers who are struggling to survive at the moment, with nowhere near as many fingers in as many different pies as Behringer has.
Nothing is certain in business, no matter who you are, and it only takes one bad decision to ruin a reputation, and a company.

[Luke W]

Equally, our own analog Xenyx mixers and many other products have been widely cloned.

By who? Mackie?

Exactly what I was thinking.

A very slimy statement altogether really.

[Hugh Robjohns]

But as a manufacturer they cannot ignore the feelings of their customers...

I think they are paying attention to their customers from all around the world, the vast majority of whom just want cheap products they can afford. And if they happen to look like the more expensive capitalist Western products they can't afford, so much the better!

...we think about things like a moral stance, ethical production values.

Actually, I think 'we' are unusual in the whole global population adopting the 'fair play' attitude. The joke about the British Queue -- fair play and take your turn etc -- is a global one. Other cultures much prefer the free-for-all, get what you can, haggle and barter approach... it's 'not British'... but so what?

Uli is using his industrial might to produce equipment he can make for little cost and sell at low prices while still making good profit margins. And he is forcing other 'traditional' manufacturers to go down the same road to remain in business, let alone to be competitive!

Yes, in an ideal world we'd all vote with our wallets and buy from the established traditional companies.... but in the real world, saving hundreds or thousands of pounds by buying Behringer gear is too good a deal for most to give up...

Nothing is certain in business, no matter who you are, and it only takes one bad decision to ruin a reputation, and a company.

Yes... but he's a big global player, and even if everyone in the UK vowed never to buy another Behringer product it wouldn't make ant significant difference to his company!

[The Elf]

I think they are paying attention to their customers from all around the world, the vast majority of whom just want cheap products they can afford. And if they happen to look like the more expensive capitalist Western products they can't afford, so much the better!

I would agree with you right up to this latest product, which seems to undercut Arturia's price by such a narrow margin that I really don't see the point for its existence - especially when they must have had at least an inkling of the reception it was going to invoke.

But, as others have said, maybe that's the point.

[Arpangel]

Yes... but he's a big global player, and even if everyone in the UK vowed never to buy another Behringer product it wouldn't make ant significant difference to his company!

You know that, I know that, and above all, Uli Behringer knows that full well.
Which sort of makes this whole issue a bit more of a bad taste.
This British thing we talk about, I think it’s great we still have it, I know in business we have to to be tough, and make difficult decisions sometimes, but I’m a big believer in showing a bit of "gentlemanly" behaviour sometimes, but that’s why I’m not a Uli Behringer I guess.

[Drew Stephenson]

I think it's a good statement from Behringer...

bear with me...

because it clearly lays out their stance.
They will compete fiercely up to the limits of the law in any and all categories that they can.

We are now in no doubt about motives, behaviours, ethical stance or anything like that, and can make a simple informed decision on who we support.
We can vote with our wallets because we have a clear manifesto on which to base that decision.

And Hugh's point about fairness is a good one, for everyone who sees it as unfair, someone else sees it as good business sense. In fact globally there are probably more of the latter.
If you or we choose not to subscribe to that, then that's great for the smaller players. In the meantime thousands of people are getting into music and music production because they can now afford things that were previously out of reach - especially in less well off countries. I'm not going to criticise them, especially not with two Behringer controllers on the desk in front of me.

P.s. just google audio mixer on Amazon or Wish to see plenty of examples of Behringer's designs being copied. I'd often wondered how they felt about being out-Behringer'd, now we know.

[muzines]

(The above image posted with Behringer's statement.)

My overall takeaway from the statement is basically Uli saying:

"Other sh*tty companies rip off established brands' successful products, so I don't see what the problem is with us doing it..."

[Arpangel]

Regarding this Keystep malarkey, I’d buy the Arturia, simply because it’s not considerably dearer, and more importantly, that small, extra few quid, brings me great customer support, if any is needed, I’m not confident about getting that with large corporate companies like Behringer.
I’ve had great one-to-one support from Arturia in the past.

[Logarhythm]

Anyone else wondering if one of the special features accessed by connecting the Swing to the Behringer DAW is that it turns into a photocopier?

The statement makes total sense to me, and as a consumer I can see the real b̶e̶n̶e̶f̶i̶t̶s̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶U̶l̶i̶'̶s̶ ̶b̶a̶n̶k̶ ̶a̶c̶c̶o̶u̶n̶t̶ ̶f̶r̶o̶m̶ ̶c̶o̶p̶y̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶c̶o̶m̶p̶e̶t̶i̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶c̶r̶u̶s̶h̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶m̶ ̶u̶s̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶e̶c̶o̶n̶o̶m̶i̶e̶s̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶s̶c̶a̶l̶e̶ value to customers. In fact I think now is as good a time as any to announce that, having spent many m̶i̶n̶u̶t̶e̶s̶ months c̶o̶p̶y̶i̶n̶g̶ developing my new synth, I'll shortly be joining the hardware market. What do you all think of my first design?

[Drew Stephenson]

Regarding this Keystep malarkey, I’d buy the Arturia, simply because it’s not considerably dearer, and more importantly, that small, extra few quid, brings me great customer support, if any is needed, I’m not confident about getting that with large corporate companies like Behringer.
I’ve had great one-to-one support from Arturia in the past.

And that's just one reason why cargo-cult copying frequently doesn't result in market success. Look at how companies like Microsoft, Facebook, Google etc, who were once innovative, have tried to copy others like Tik-Tok, Instagram (before being bought), or even each other (Google+ anyone?), but have failed to understand what the actual USP for the product is.

FWIW I'm not defending Behringer, I don't know why they take the design decisions they do, especially if this Swing has a bunch of stuff under the bonnet that will integrate with their new DAW, you'd assume they'd want it to stand out...
I guess they'd argue that if people don't want their designs copied they should register the design rights - but like most of us here, I don't think they should have to. But hey ho, I'm sitting in a shed in my back garden and I'm sure Uli's very concerned about my thoughts (from his palace in LA or wherever he's based now).

[The Elf]

It's sad to see so much 'what can you do...' about this subject.

"Nobody made a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could do only a little." Edmund Burke

[Drew Stephenson]

I'm not suggesting it's a 'what can you do' situation, I'm suggesting it's a 'what do you want to do?' one.
This is only an issue to those who see it as such. Hence it's a personal decision based on one's moral compass.

[The Elf]

I'm not suggesting it's a 'what can you do' situation, I'm suggesting it's a 'what do you want to do?' one.
This is only an issue to those who see it as such. Hence it's a personal decision based on one's moral compass.

Agreed.

I have one piece of B gear on order. On the one hand I don't feel like handing money over right now, but then there's the consideration of the (UK) store I'm buying it from *and* a second 'one-man-band' business who is supplying part of this purchase. At the moment I'm thinking I'll see it through, but that's me finished until those bridges are repaired to my satisfaction. This whole incident has very much taken the shine off it for me.

I don't think B will go under on the strength of my brand boycott, but neither will they profit from my custom. I'm OK with that.

[baward]

I've just bought a Keystep 37 and I love it already (I wonder how long it will be etc.etc.). Somehow I seem to be able to be more creative, just playing the keys as opposed to on a full-sized keyboard.

[muzines]

Mini keys is the secret weapon of the pros that they aren't telling you about!