Discussion: putting together a single-synth Berlin School rig

[Ben Asaro]

This will be a long one, sorry.

TLDR; Should I use my JV-1080 or K2000R for a single-synth Berlin School rig? Or perhaps some other option?

I’m looking to put together a single-controller, single-synth Berlin School rig for -- HOPEFULLY -- live performance (and composition) should we continue to trend towards normalcy here in NYC, and if not, perhaps for live streams. (If you need a sonic reference, here is my latest stuff, https://donmusicpresents.bandcamp.com/)

I want the synth to be able to handle effects as well, with perhaps the exception of the Eventide Blackhole.

For the controller I have the KeyStep Pro, which I purchased in March/April and have only used as an occasional MIDI keyboard thus far.

For the synth I need something that can play 4 simultaneous voices on different MIDI channels at the same time. I have two synths that fit the bill: the JV-1080 and the K2000R.

JV-1080. Pros: I know the Performance mode well; relatively lightweight; only 2U high and 12” deep, so easily rackable; multiple outputs; multiple onboard effects; Patch Base has an editor for it. Cons: I’ve never done any serious programming on it and don’t know much about the actual architecture of the voices.

K2000R. Pros: VAST synthesis; onboard effects; many great vintage synth emulations; also has multiple outputs. Cons: it’s a BEAST at 3U, 14” deep and nearly 30 lbs; fan noise (may or may not be an issue); no modern editor available.

I thought about putting together a 104hp modular for this and going pure analogue, but between the power supply, self-noise, having to wait to stabilize/tuning, patch cables, etc, it’s just too much work for gigging in NYC. I need something I can get up and running in less than 10 minutes, and even less for breakdown. (Typical down time between performers here is 10-15 minutes from last note of one band to first note of the next, and your average FOH engineer thinks that without guitars or acoustic drums, it should be plug and play)

I know the actual answer is try them both and use what works best, but I would welcome any thoughts or feedback based on experience with both/either. I am also open to other suggestions, within reason. DO NOT SUGGEST AN IPAD OR COMPUTER, because I will not listen.

CRITICAL SOUNDS that I need include: dual sawtooth pluck (with detune), synth brass, string sound, bass sound, percussion. CRITICAL EFFECTS: tempo-sync’d delay, reverb (preferably two or more of each).

Stereo operation is not critical, but would be nice in case I want to use the setup for recording as well as performance.
Thanks in advance!

[Dave B]

The effects in the K2000 are .. ahem ... of its time ... ahem and you might need something else in there.

My heart would always go Kurzweil (the sounds you want are what it excels at), but my head is saying Roland.

[Ben Asaro]

Thanks, Dave! I think I agree. I know I can get the Roland into a 2-3U rack and carry both it and the KSP on the subway, whereas that would be extremely difficult with the K2000!

[resistorman]

Agree. Besides the weight and bulk, trying to program the K2000 from the front panel would be awful.

[The Elf]

DO NOT SUGGEST AN IPAD OR COMPUTER, because I will not listen.

How do I win a car race? DO NOT SUGGEST A RACING CAR, because I will not listen.

I need something I can get up and running in less than 10 minutes, and even less for breakdown.

between the power supply, self-noise, having to wait to stabilize/tuning, patch cables, etc, it’s just too much work for gigging...

That race car option sounding any better?

One of the bands I perform live with are (not our phrase, but aimed at us often) 'Berlin School'. Guess how we do (most of) it?...

[Ben Asaro]

DO NOT SUGGEST AN IPAD OR COMPUTER, because I will not listen.

How do I win a car race? DO NOT SUGGEST A RACING CAR, because I will not listen.

I need something I can get up and running in less than 10 minutes, and even less for breakdown.

between the power supply, self-noise, having to wait to stabilize/tuning, patch cables, etc, it’s just too much work for gigging...

That race car option sounding any better?

One of the bands I perform live with are (not our phrase, but aimed at us often) 'Berlin School'. Guess how we do (most of) it?...

I appreciate the sentiment, believe me, I do. But I'm not the least bit interested in using an iPad or laptop.

I know this may sound maliciously ignorant to you.

[The Elf]

No, I applaud your stance. But I do fear you're like the teenagers heading up to 'the old Johnson house'...

[Ben Asaro]

No, I applaud your stance. But I do fear you're like the teenagers heading up to 'the old Johnson house'...

LOL and I may end up the same way!

[Ben Asaro]

I bought the Patch Base editor for the JV-1080 yesterday. The layout is slick and is quite a bit easier to navigate than the one for the MOPHO! Though I don't think the menu system is terrible on the JV-1080 at all.

The only issue I foresee is the fact that each patch can only have one effect plus chorus and reverb per layer, which means that if I want to have two delays, I need to replicate the tone layer and apply a different delay. Not a deal-breaker, but I will have to see how it works in context. The downside is that a single, simple voice can easily take up an entire patch, and I will probably have to stack patches to get the sound I'm after. The Upside is that I can take advantage of that layering and create stereo delays, which may be nice.

[Dave B]

Sorry - got to go there ... it's like a brain itch...

Ben, do you need all the polyphony and expansion cards in the JV1080?

I ask because the single best Roland-buying decision I made was to swap out the 1080 for an XV5050. It is smaller front to back, a single 1U high, has usb for midi, and - most importantly - it sounds _so_ much better than the JV series. It's basically what the JVs should have been. It's half the polyphony, I don't think that you'd get much more fx and it certainly can't be loaded with cards, but it just sounded so much clearer and lusher to me.

[Ben Asaro]

Hmm, I’ll have to look into the XV, thanks for the tip!

[Ben Asaro]

A quick search later … looks like a really cool synth! Maybe I’ll look more seriously into it if this experiment goes well, though I would be more inclined towards to XV-5080 since it has JV expansion slots and I have three SR-JV expansion cards for the JV-1080 already.

For now I will stick with what I have (JV-1080 with expansion cards) and see how far I can get.

[The Elf]

If you like the look of the XV then consider the Integra-7 too. It has all the XV expansion cards inside (you 'install' them virtually) and also a good smattering of Supernatural sounds too.

[Ben Asaro]

Thanks, Elf! I'll look into that as well!

The primary functionality I need is Performance mode that will allow me to assign a separate patch to each MIDI channel for simultaneous sequencer playback.

[The Elf]

I'm also wondering about Yoshimi...

[YashN]

K2000 + MIDI Controller would do it for me.

If you have the latest version of the O.S. and Setup chips, there's also a step sequencer in there.

Internal effects are based on DIgitech DSP 256 and known to be a bit noisy. You can use the trick of changing internal levels of the effects (increase them) so that you can reduce the Wet/Dry mix.

Both the grainy Digitech and the K2000 itself can get you the vintage vibe, especially if you roll off quite a bit within V.A.S.T. There are combination effects too.

No one would edit while performing live (or maybe I'd do that): you would want to pre-program as much as possible and leave the live perf. to the MIDI mapped controls. The mapping for realtime controls with FUNs for instance can be amazing. There is some realtime control possible for the internal effects as well.

As for synthesis itself, it's extremely powerful, to the extent you could even do delay/echo purely in V.A.S.T. and not touch any internal or external effect at all (goodbye background noise)...

Lugging a K2000 is like lugging a roomful of synths or 'the history of synths' as K. put it once.

[Dave B]

Yash, have a wander through the threads here and you'll see that this forum has one or two - ok, quite a lot of - Kurzweil fans ...

What you are saying is completely correct, but Ben tends to travel on the subway with gear ( hey - dose whacky New Yoikers) so size and weight are quite important to him. Even I - hardened Kurz fan that I am - have to grudgingly admit that the JV suits his requirements better. If he didn't have the size and weight restriction, it would be K2000 all the way.

[YashN]

size and weight restriction

I am thoroughly tempted to unscrew the long metal bar in my K2500XS...

Now that thing is heavy.

You can't lug a K2500XS under one arm.

A K2000, you can.

[The Elf]

I'm kicking myself that I didn't also mention the Audiothingies MicroMonsta 2.

The only problem is that they are rare as fish socks and the world is currently awaiting a new batch to arrive.

It is the size of a small paper-back book, powers from USB, 3-oscillators, 16-voices, or dual 8-voice... Really amazing synth at an amazing price,

[YashN]

Modal [Cobalt8, Argon8], Korg [Opsix, Modwave, Wavestate, Minilogue[XD]], etc...

Aren't we just spoilt for choice nowadays?

[Ben Asaro]

I'm kicking myself that I didn't also mention the Audiothingies MicroMonsta 2.

The only problem is that they are rare as fish socks and the world is currently awaiting a new batch to arrive.

It is the size of a small paper-back book, powers from USB, 3-oscillators, 16-voices, or dual 8-voice... Really amazing synth at an amazing price,

Does it play multiple parts, though? That's where the rubber meets the road for me, I need to have 3-4 sequences running at once on a single unit.

[YashN]

Big B's Deepmind 6 or 12D.

[The Elf]

I'm kicking myself that I didn't also mention the Audiothingies MicroMonsta 2.

The only problem is that they are rare as fish socks and the world is currently awaiting a new batch to arrive.

It is the size of a small paper-back book, powers from USB, 3-oscillators, 16-voices, or dual 8-voice... Really amazing synth at an amazing price,

Does it play multiple parts, though? That's where the rubber meets the road for me, I need to have 3-4 sequences running at once on a single unit.

It can play 2 parts in dual mode (2 x 8-voice synths) - buy 2 of 'em for 4 parts!

Seriously, for the money and physical size it would be worth considering.

[Ben Asaro]

I'm kicking myself that I didn't also mention the Audiothingies MicroMonsta 2.

The only problem is that they are rare as fish socks and the world is currently awaiting a new batch to arrive.

It is the size of a small paper-back book, powers from USB, 3-oscillators, 16-voices, or dual 8-voice... Really amazing synth at an amazing price,

Does it play multiple parts, though? That's where the rubber meets the road for me, I need to have 3-4 sequences running at once on a single unit.

It can play 2 parts in dual mode (2 x 8-voice synths) - buy 2 of 'em for 4 parts!

Seriously, for the money and physical size it would be worth considering.

I'm sure it is, but that starts the slippery slope of getting away from a single box solution.