Discussion: putting together a single-synth Berlin School rig

[Drew Stephenson]

Isn't that what the second, portable, modular set-up is for?

[The Elf]

I'm kicking myself that I didn't also mention the Audiothingies MicroMonsta 2.

The only problem is that they are rare as fish socks and the world is currently awaiting a new batch to arrive.

It is the size of a small paper-back book, powers from USB, 3-oscillators, 16-voices, or dual 8-voice... Really amazing synth at an amazing price,

Does it play multiple parts, though? That's where the rubber meets the road for me, I need to have 3-4 sequences running at once on a single unit.

It can play 2 parts in dual mode (2 x 8-voice synths) - buy 2 of 'em for 4 parts!

Seriously, for the money and physical size it would be worth considering.

I'm sure it is, but that starts the slippery slope of getting away from a single box solution.

Glue them to a piece of wood - it would still be lighter and smaller than any rack.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ben Asaro]

Isn't that what the second, portable, modular set-up is for?

If I had my druthers, I would do this in 104hp with the NerdSerq, Chainsaw Quad VCA, and 4 filters ... but that creates more problems than it solves. I've played maybe 300 gigs in NYC over my lifetime and I know enough to know that ideally I want a maximum of 3 devices, no more than 5 cables, and less than 10 minutes (preferably 5) for setup and breakdown.

I need to get from my building onto a bus, the subway (1-2 trains) and back, so multiple power supplies, spare cables, even a tuner adds too much overhead to the travel requirements.

[Ben Asaro]

Modal [Cobalt8, Argon8], Korg [Opsix, Modwave, Wavestate, Minilogue[XD]], etc...

Aren't we just spoilt for choice nowadays?

I'm not sure you read my OP; do any of those offer a significant improvement over what I already have? And if so, what? Just listing a bunch of synths isn't very helpful and I've already explained at length what my use case and needs are.

[YashN]

Modal [Cobalt8, Argon8], Korg [Opsix, Modwave, Wavestate, Minilogue[XD]], etc...

Aren't we just spoilt for choice nowadays?

I'm not sure you read my OP; do any of those offer a significant improvement over what I already have? And if so, what? Just listing a bunch of synths isn't very helpful and I've already explained at length what my use case and needs are.

I sure did, because who wrote this, me?: "Or perhaps some other option?" I'll leave you to do the research on the other synths mentioned, e.g. on YT.

Re-read my post on the Kurz above (or perhaps you didn't find it helpful), but if you've already made up your mind not to use it, then go with the JV.

Either way you look at it, by your own admission, you haven't even programmed the JV in any depth. The Kurz either.

Had you done some work on the Kurz, you'd find it covers a lot of bases, to the extent you'd GAS less on additional synths.

For me, I'd definitely consider modular/analogue: a good portion of what constitutes the Berlin School is Tangerine Dream, and early TD had a lot of that.

That style is often fairly minimalist, the background being an 8-note sequence with played variations on top.

I can do that kind of thing in a single program, a single key played and the whole track evolving like that on the Kurz, with the ability to do more if I want, like playing live tracks manually...

Daniel Fischer did a whole Pink Floyd track on a Kurz like that once...

[N i g e l]

I was going to suggest a Waldorf blofeld but although its a small box, its solid and isnt tempo sync friendly.
Apart from that, its a competent VA, can do FM squeels, has a PPG filter & of course the PPG wavetables. Easier & quicker to program than a Kurzweil. .

for 10x the price theres Nord Wave II - does knobby hands on VA, FM & has sample replay - which is nice because Nords have access to the original mellotron master tapes. Some of which are customer specific, like the Tangerine dream reels.

that was pre-recorded and not synthed live ?????? All good fun
https://www.nordkeyboards.com/sound-lib ... ist-sounds

if time is not of the essence, Behringer are probably just finishing off their PPG wave 2.2 but that might only be duo timbral and Ive not heard if it includes the sequencer.

[John Stafford]

For me, a sequencer like the Korg SQ-1 would be a must for a Berlin School setup.

You could carry the SQ-1 in your pocket, so it wouldn't feel like carting more gear.

[Ben Asaro]

Just had my first round of editing an Init patch in the JV-1080. Patch Base is great in that it gives visual feedback. However, I am struggling to figure out how to apply the filter envelope in a way that will result in a decent pluck. I'm not even hearing the filter envelope, actually. Going to keep plugging (plucking?) away, I'm sure there's something obvious I'm missing. With an analogue synth, it's easy peasy. Back at it!

[Ben Asaro]

LOL got it, thanks to the diagram in the Owner's Manual. To set the decay for Level 1, you actually have to adjust the time of Level 2, since that's the time it takes to get from Level 1 to Level 2. It's versatile, but totally different from what I'm used to with analogue EGs.

Now to see if I can get a workable waveshape now!

[Ben Asaro]

Well, I'm pretty chuffed -- this sounds much better than it has any right to!

Figuring out how the effects are added was a bit more complex than it needed to be, but I sorted it out in the end. I'm a little disappointed by the fact that if you have effects on a patch, those effects are overridden when in Performance mode, but it's not a deal breaker.

After I dialed in a rough pluck patch, I felt it was a bit 'squelchy' in that way that Roland filters sound, but once I added delay and reverb, it sounded great!

The versatility and depth of the JV-1080's editing was quite surprising, and the manual actually has lots of useful info, I think it just automatically assumes you have a certain level of familiarity with the architecture.

I'll keep chipping away at it, my plan is to write the plucks on my own and then use the Orchestral and Bass & Drum expansion cards for bass, drums, and string sounds.

Will see how it goes!

[Ben Asaro]

Had a chance to work on this some more early this morning. Everything sounds/works great. I think that the ultimate setback is going to be the rhythm track. If I use the KSP for two melodic lines, bass, and leave one open for live improvisation over top, there are no tracks left for drums.

The question is: do I add the BeatStep Pro? Stand alone drum machine? Or scale it way back and have just one sequenced line, one bass track, one drum track, and one live improv track?

The advantage of using the BSP is that it also adds 2 more potential melodic lines, which can create some nice complex syncopations.

Hmmm ... will have to think about this!

[Ben Asaro]

Hit my first real snag.

I pulled out my BeatStep Pro, sync'd the two together, and off we go ... or so I thought. Turns out that the KSP's MIDI Out will not pass external MIDI, and the MIDI Thru won't send the internal sequencer's MIDI so I'm left with the JV-1080 receiving either the MIDI from the KSP or the BSP.

So, I guess a MIDI Merge box is needed to combine both pieces, which I must say is rather annoyance since they are both made by the same bloody manufacturer and one would think that they can be made to form a single system.

I'm not a fan of the box count, which will now creep to four, including the JV-1080, though it will double the amount of sequencer tracks available.

I had a moment of hope against hope that the K2000R would have two MIDI inputs, but it doesn't.

Tomorrow is Sunday, so I have another day to decide on my course of action. Worst case I'll order a MIDI merge box from Sweetwater on Monday.

[Ben Asaro]

Had another chance to give the setup a play today and start tweaking things.

I did an A/B of the internal effects on the Roland vs using my usual RV-500/Blackhole setup and of course there's no comparison in the quality department. I will probably end up setting up two Performances, one for each scenario so I have all of my bases covered, but the external effects do elevate the baisc sound of the Roland quite a bit!

This brings the grand total of boxes from 2 (KSP and JV-1080} to 6 (BSP, KSP, JV-1080, RV-500, Blackhole, MIDI merger) should I decide to go this route. I suspected that some sort of 'box creep' would occur and this would be the absolute maximum I think I could comfortably carry with me.

[Drew Stephenson]

Maybe you need to look for a Kurzweil...

[Ben Asaro]

Maybe you need to look for a Kurzweil...

HA!
I won’t have to look far! I think that the fundamental issues (needing more sequencing control and dated effects) would be the same, unfortunately. The size and weight of the K2000R just makes it a no-go for me.

However — I might do this in phases with Phase 1 using the Roland for travel and Phase 2 using the Kurz for at home?

[Ben Asaro]

Started from a clean slate this morning; factory reset the JV-1080, and worked on a bunch of patches from scratch now that I'm getting used to the way Patch Base works.

Patch Base is definitely a life saver, it works great.

Set up 4 different pluck sounds, the only one I have left is a Blade Runner-ish brass sound. I have all of the current patches running dry and using the RV-500 and Blackhole. For sounds that don't need a pile of delay and reverb, I'll use the other output.

I would imagine that I will probably need to have different performances set up eventually for different sound sets, but for now I'm probably going to set it up with:
Bass
Drums/Percussion
Orchestral Strings
Orchestral Brass
Synth Brass
2x different pluck sounds

That should be plenty of sounds available.

Just have to wait for the MIDI merger to show up and then I can start working out the logistics!

[Ben Asaro]

I really have to hand it to Patch Base, they have made it incredibly easy to program the JV-1080!

When I was looking at how to use Rhythm sets, I figured I would have to settle for one of the preset patches, which is kind of a waste. But with Patch Base, I can make a custom set for every octave if I like, enabling a mix and match of trad/ethnic/orchestral percussion sounds.

Fantastic!

[Ben Asaro]

Made great progress yesterday! Setting up a bespoke Rhythm set was dead easy and I was able to get 12 of the 16 pads of the BSP assigned with drum sounds; I am leaving the other 4 pads available for any sounds I will need as I go along.

Since plucks and percussion are both suited to pads over keys, I will be setting up the BSP to handle 2x plucks and percussion duties; the KSP will be used for anything requiring polyphony or improvisational lead playing.

I finalized the setup by assigning Output 1 for anything that will use outboard delay and reverb and Output 2 for anything using onboard effects (mostly just a room reverb, or dry).

Now all I need is the MIDI merge box and I can get to work!

[Ben Asaro]

I know this is going to sound weird (and unscientific) but there is a definite difference in the feel of the clock (to me) using MIDI vs analogue sync ... kinda hard to describe, but there is a 'stiffness' to the MIDI clock that doesn't seem to be present when using the modular. It's not bad, just ... different. Different enough where I may sync the BSP and KSP via sync instead of MIDI, but I will have to experiment some more first.

I think in part it has to do with the way the clock starts. It feels like the MIDI clock is infinitesimally quicker from the moment I press Play to the start of the sequence.

[Dave B]

It's interesting that you say that - midi is a serial protocol and, as such, often tends to be ever so slightly off the beat. CV/Gate is bang on for all channels - it's inherent in the design.

So, if you are right and it is the start, then that does kind of make sense as the midi clock timing could potentially be sent much faster than the 'ticks' for analogue syncing. It does depend on the clock speed.

But, once the sequence has started, I wouldn't expect much of a difference. I'd try both and record the results into a DAW and compare the results. But I'm sad like that ...

[Ben Asaro]

LOL I'm not that overly concerned about it, and if it means avoiding another cable, I'm all for it.

[Ben Asaro]

Still waiting on the MIDI merger (slated to arrive today), but I was able to give the ‘saucer section’ a serious play last night.

On the PLUS SIDE, the BSP is a remarkable piece of kit. I’ve barely used mine since owning it; after I started using the modular more than MIDI synths for this kind of music, the SQ-1 and NerdSeq ended up in pride of place and the BSP was relegated to MIDI/CV conversion, and not even that once I got the MIDI <>CLK module from Erica Synths.

I never realized how powerful the BSP is for performance; being able to adjust the velocity, gate, and pitch of every step with the press of a button and turn of encoder makes it great for writing melodies in a similar fashion to the NerdSeq.

On the MINUS SIDE, the USB power connector is extremely fiddly, and I can see why it is a sore spot for many users. When using the BSP in anger, the USB will loosen up with little provocation and you will lose whatever is unsaved! It’s a royal pain when that happens!

My only design quibble with the BSP is the encoder caps themselves; the plastic seems to be breaking down and is getting all sticky/gummy and feel gross to the touch. I will have to replace them asap.

[Ben Asaro]

MIDI merger arrived and it works perfect! Time to get to work!

[Ben Asaro]

Further discussion of using this setup in anger can be found here, https://www.soundonsound.com/forum/view ... 23&t=78257