Chords progression of one of my songs - phrygian mode?

[merlyn]

It's worth noting that :

(number of sharps to notate a key) + (number of flats to notate a key) = 12

e.g. F# major (6 sharps) = Gb major (6 flats)
B major (5 sharps) = Cb major (7 flats)

So D# major has 9 sharps since Eb has 3 flats.

I've never seen D# major used. Theoretically it exists but it's a bit nutty to use 9 sharps instead of 3 flats.

[RichardT]

It's worth noting that :

(number of sharps to notate a key) + (number of flats to notate a key) = 12

e.g. F# major (6 sharps) = Gb major (6 flats)
B major (5 sharps) = Cb major (7 flats)

So D# major has 9 sharps since Eb has 3 flats.

I've never seen D# major used. Theoretically it exists but it's a bit nutty to use 9 sharps instead of 3 flats.

I never knew that! If there are 9 sharps in D#, then two of them must be a double sharp as there are only 7 notes to sharpen. That would be a very intimidating key signature!

[merlyn]

Another way to think about it is D major has 2 sharps. D# major then sharpens everything resulting in F## and C##.

[Drew Stephenson]

You see stuff like this is why people give up on music theory!

[merlyn]

This is a question of spelling. The sound of this triad exists whatever you call it and it can be 'spelt' two different ways. To be honest we haven't got to 'theory' yet -- it helps to be able to spell first.

Either Eb -- Eb G Bb
or D# -- D# F## A#

[Ben Asaro]

You see stuff like this is why people give up on music theory!

lol Totally!

An easy way to think about it is: each scale needs to have every pitch class for that scale.
So in a major scale, you need to have 7 pitch classes (eg, C, D, E, F, G, A, B). Some composers will go through great lengths piling on enharmonics to keep that structure when it would be easier to just notate it in a different key. It is, however, a personal choice of the composer.

Edit -- different scales have different requirements (pentatonic, octatonic, whole tone, etc)

I hope that helps!

[Drew Stephenson]

You're already over my head Ben, I'm not even keeping up with Merlyn's spelling!
I mean, why isn't F## just G?
You don't need to answer this, I'm not trying to drag the thread off topic!

For the record, I'm not proud of this and my ignorance isn't something I've set out to preserve, it's just having been pretty much self-taught as a musician*, and primarily on guitar, I've just never engaged with the music theory side of things and I fear I'm a bit of a lost cause now.
I'm sure if I were to dedicate the hours to it I could pick up the basics, but there are other things I would rather be dedicating my hours to!

* I use this word very loosely!

[Ben Asaro]

You're already over my head Ben, I'm not even keeping up with Merlyn's spelling!
I mean, why isn't F## just G?
You don't need to answer this, I'm not trying to drag the thread off topic!

LOL it's not dragging the topic down at all, imo.

F##, in terms of pitch, is the same frequency of G (assuming they are in the same octave). Remember how above I said you have to maintain the pitch classes? This is a perfect example of applying that. There will be occasions where you have to label a note double sharp so that you don't have the same pitch class twice (there are cases where you will see F## and G in the same measure, for example). In other words, you can't have a C major scale that has the pitch class of G twice. But if you are expressing other keys and keeping your notation in C, that's where you start to see these wild enharmonic interpretations...

[Drew Stephenson]

Sorry but you lost me at 'pitch class'.
I think this is part of the problem with coming at this, ahem, later in life. There is a whole lexicon that you have to learn as well as the conceptual side.

[Ben Asaro]

Sorry but you lost me at 'pitch class'.
I think this is part of the problem with coming at this, ahem, later in life. There is a whole lexicon that you have to learn as well as the conceptual side.

True!

[GilesAnt]

Sorry but you lost me at 'pitch class'.

He basically means the lettered notes, C D E etc.

Every maj/min scale must contain every letter (pitch class) from A to G. Each letter must be present but only once. So the scale of F cannot be F G A A sharp C etc. Here the letter A is used twice and the B is missing. So it has to be F G A B flat C etc.

Each letter can be modulated by the sharp or flat symbol, or even a double sharp/flat but each letter must still be present, once only.

[Ben Asaro]

Sorry but you lost me at 'pitch class'.

He basically means the lettered notes, C D E etc.

Every maj/min scale must contain every letter (pitch class) from A to G. Each letter must be present but only once. So the scale of F cannot be F G A A sharp C etc. Here the letter A is used twice and the B is missing. So it has to be F G A B flat C etc.

Each letter can be modulated by the sharp or flat symbol, or even a double sharp/flat but each letter must still be present, once only.

Well explained! I was in the middle of typing the same thing, nice save!

[Drew Stephenson]

I did not know this.
I think that's about as much education as I can handle in a day!

[RichardT]

Hmm, if each letter can only have one alteration in a key signature, which is obviously true, then the flats + sharps = 12 rule cannot be true for D# /Eb. Something’s gotta give...

[RichardT]

Aah - I looked it up. Double sharps and double flats count as 2 accidentals each in the rule of 12. Here’s F flat...

[RichardT]

You're already over my head Ben, I'm not even keeping up with Merlyn's spelling!
I mean, why isn't F## just G?
You don't need to answer this, I'm not trying to drag the thread off topic!

For the record, I'm not proud of this and my ignorance isn't something I've set out to preserve, it's just having been pretty much self-taught as a musician*, and primarily on guitar, I've just never engaged with the music theory side of things and I fear I'm a bit of a lost cause now.
I'm sure if I were to dedicate the hours to it I could pick up the basics, but there are other things I would rather be dedicating my hours to!

* I use this word very loosely!

The only real reason you need to know the theory is if you are dealing with other musicians who need it, such as classical players.

[merlyn]

Taking it to a ridiculous extreme C is 0 flats or 0 sharps so if the rule holds it should be 12 flats or 12 sharps.

B# = B# C## D## E# F## G## A## (if you count them it's 12. 5 doubles + 2)

Dbb = Dbb Ebb Fb Gbb Abb Bbb Cb (again 12)

[Wurlitzer]

Sorry but you lost me at 'pitch class'.

He basically means the lettered notes, C D E etc.

Every maj/min scale must contain every letter (pitch class) from A to G. Each letter must be present but only once. So the scale of F cannot be F G A A sharp C etc. Here the letter A is used twice and the B is missing. So it has to be F G A B flat C etc.

Each letter can be modulated by the sharp or flat symbol, or even a double sharp/flat but each letter must still be present, once only.

This is such an important principle and so often overlooked. It's easier to understand if you put it on manuscript (I could probably draft something and upload it but don't have time right now). You write a SCALE on the stave by going line - space - line - space - line - space etc. You can look at that and see immediately that each note is one step up the scale from the previous one. Which ones are flats, naturals or sharps is then a secondary consideration. But if you write a scale that goes line - space - line - same line again - (skip the next space) - line, it looks wrong. At first glance, it looks like a note is repeated and then followed by a skip. You have to stop and analyse the accidentals to work out that's not the case.

The point being that music reading in realtime, for those like classical musicians for whom it's an integral part of what they do, is often more to do with overall shape than detail. You see a scale pattern, know what the key is, note any accidentals and it slots into the appropriate pre-existing scale slot in your brain. You see something that doesn't look like a scale pattern and it doesn't.

Actually the topic of this thread is a case in point. The song is in G# minor, which we're calling natural minor or aeolian because it's just G# minor according to the key signature (or phrygian at the point where the A# in the key signature becomes A natural). If you wanted to make it G# harmonic minor you'd have to sharpen the 7th note of the scale. The 7th note of the scale is F#, so it would become F##, not G natural. This is not pedantry - G natural really WOULD look weird because when it resolves to the keynote it would be going from one kind of G to another, rather than actually going up a step on the stave.

Chord V would also look strange notated as D# - G - A#: a fourth and a second, for something that is supposed to sound like a triad. D# - F## - A# would make much more sense visually.

Though I acknowledge that if somebody accidentally played a minor chord on a gig and you corrected them by calling out "that should be F double sharp!" you'd probably get a pint of beer thrown at you.

[Drew Stephenson]

I can't help but feel that if you guys had been teaching my music lessons when I was 9 I might have kept doing them when I was 10.

[Sam Spoons]

This is such an important principle and so often overlooked. It's easier to understand if you put it on manuscript (I could probably draft something and upload it but don't have time right now). You write a SCALE on the stave by going line - space - line - space - line - space etc. You can look at that and see immediately that each note is one step up the scale from the previous one. Which ones are flats, naturals or sharps is then a secondary consideration. But if you write a scale that goes line - space - line - same line again - (skip the next space) - line, it looks wrong. At first glance, it looks like a note is repeated and then followed by a skip. You have to stop and analyse the accidentals to work out that's not the case.

This is the key point for me, it has to be thus os written manuscript makes no sense (and I'm not a reader in any meaningful way).