Equipment hire, business idea advice needed.

[Arpangel]

I'd even say that audio quality is something for people whose primary interest is not the music. :-

Correct, I've come across more than one "audiophile" that only buys recordings based on technical quallity.
Beethovens 5th or the Velvet Underground's Sunday Morning move me emotionally perfectly fine through a laptop speaker, no amount of fidelity could ad anything more.

[BigRedX]

Well, don't know you - but when I was a kid we didn't have an hifi home, so no vinly, fancy speakers and amplifiers, and hardly could afford to buy original cassettes, so most of the music I listened to was from home-made duplicates made by friends. And lots of that was heard on a crappy mono player. Being cassettes what they are, the quality was technically awful.

And you know what? I couldn't care less. That music was speaking to me (and all the circle of friends) completely irrelevant of the audio quality. I suspect things aren't that different now.

I'd even say that audio quality is something for people whose primary interest is not the music.

It's perfectly possible to nail the commercial market - just as it always was - by doing a combination of what you like and what the market likes.

I couldn't agree more.

My parents weren't very interested in listening to music and for a long time my music playback devices was a Dansette which cost me £8 from a local junk shop and played one channel of my stereo records much louder than the other, a factor that turned stereo mixes of some 60s records into instrumentals, and hid large parts of the arrangement on others.

None of that spoiled my enjoyment of the MUSIC.

[Rich Hanson]

I'd even say that audio quality is something for people whose primary interest is not the music. :-

Correct, I've come across more than one "audiophile" that only buys recordings based on technical quallity.
Beethovens 5th or the Velvet Underground's Sunday Morning move me emotionally perfectly fine through a laptop speaker, no amount of fidelity could ad anything more.

I think Flanders & Swann nailed that back in 1957

I've an opera here that you shan't escape
On miles and miles of recording tape
High decibel gain
Is easy to obtain
With the tone control at a single touch
'Bel Canto' sounds like double dutch
Then I never did care for music much
It's the High Fidelity

[Arpangel]

Slight diversion into old record players, my first was an HMV mono valve player, similar to a Dansette, then I got a Van Der Molen stereo unit with a Garrard 2025TC auto changer, I actually think that was a step down from the HMV. The best I ever had at that time was an inherited Philco valve radiogram, that thing sounded so good it was beyond. It was massive, with 10 inch speakers and a powerful valve amp, at the time it was magical to listen to.
When I started work the first "proper" stereo I got was a Leak Stereo 30, a Garrard SP25, with a pair of home made speakers, using 10 inch Wharfedale dual concentrics in rather eccentric upward firing cabinets of my own design, they were weird but amazing!
Fantastic room filling stereo, and megga deep bass!

[Dr Huge Longjohns]

I couldn't agree more.

Me too. For people who love music it's always been about the material and the performance, not the equipment you listen to it on. Or the equipment you record it on, for that matter.

[Studio Support Gnome]

There's reason I now have a day job .... Indeed I have done so for about 3 years now.... (it's actually been two jobs, one after the other.... the first in hard core electronics , working for manufacturer of high end electronics component test equipment, for 18 months, building their tech support and sales support , from nothing but me, to a team of people in three offices around the globe, and now, for the last 18 months, quite a left field unexpected departure into ventilation and heat recovery design engineering.... as a senior engineer in the technical support and design department.

amazing what one can do with a bit of skill , experience, and knowledge, (and having studied Engineering and Physics )

finally, people actually want to pay me..... decent(ish) money, regularly, and without fuss.... I even get performance related bonuses.... and they're worth having..... coz I perform well....

I doubt anyone would argue that I didn't know what i was doing in audio, or that there was any lack of quality in any of my work... or that i didn't have a seriously over active work ethic.....

but after nigh on 30 years , i just had enough of having to work my nuts off, and compete with the blokes who read my own damn forum posts, and then undercut me on jobs.... and did a poor job.... which occasionally I found myself having to kludge up a fix for... which was never fun...

and of musicians who don't like paying their bills.

or production companies and labels who expect you to work all hours, and deliver the impossible, for no money, a week last tuesday, all gift wrapped and delivered with the moon on a stick thrown in as a good will gesture, and then take 90 days to pay, assuming they ever do...

I still consult , for existing (good) customers, friends and relatives, .... or on personal recommendation/request for their close contacts ../... but do this for a living ?? no.... I actually want to make a living...

and you know what.... I am, and I'm enjoying it....

[Arpangel]

There's reason I now have a day job .... Indeed I have done so for about 3 years now.... (it's actually been two jobs, one after the other.... the first in hard core electronics , working for manufacturer of high end electronics component test equipment, for 18 months, building their tech support and sales support , from nothing but me, to a team of people in three offices around the globe, and now, for the last 18 months, quite a left field unexpected departure into ventilation and heat recovery design engineering.... as a senior engineer in the technical support and design department.

amazing what one can do with a bit of skill , experience, and knowledge, (and having studied Engineering and Physics )

finally, people actually want to pay me..... decent(ish) money, regularly, and without fuss.... I even get performance related bonuses.... and they're worth having..... coz I perform well....

I doubt anyone would argue that I didn't know what i was doing in audio, or that there was any lack of quality in any of my work... or that i didn't have a seriously over active work ethic.....

but after nigh on 30 years , i just had enough of having to work my nuts off, and compete with the blokes who read my own damn forum posts, and then undercut me on jobs.... and did a poor job.... which occasionally I found myself having to kludge up a fix for... which was never fun...

and of musicians who don't like paying their bills.

or production companies and labels who expect you to work all hours, and deliver the impossible, for no money, a week last tuesday, all gift wrapped and delivered with the moon on a stick thrown in as a good will gesture, and then take 90 days to pay, assuming they ever do...

I still consult , for existing (good) customers, friends and relatives, .... or on personal recommendation/request for their close contacts ../... but do this for a living ?? no.... I actually want to make a living...

and you know what.... I am, and I'm enjoying it....

Interesting what you say here, I do feel, from hearing other people's comments, and attitudes, that there is a feeling that anything to do with creative pursuits, in audio/recording or any other artistic field is somehow not of any real "value" anymore and therefore you should be grateful I'm giving you something to do, let alone pay you.
It's not a healthy climate, for the arts in general, there is so much activity that they've become devalued, and that goes for audio hardware and engineering too, high end equipment is facing stiff competition from Chinese made copies, not only in hi-fI, but it's been happening in recording for decades now.
Once upon a time a career path in engineering was quite easy, and obvious providing you had the ability, go to university, a good one, study maths and physics, get a good degree ad look for a job! I can rember when a friend did exactly this in the 70's, he was offered a few jobs on graduation, Ferranti, BBC, he went abroad and had a series of good well paid jobs in the USA, but he just followed a formula, just like lots of others did. Maybe it's a lot more complicated now though.

[Drew Stephenson]

The music industry, like a lot of others, is going through a massive disruption at the moment. Old models are failing and new ones are still developing. It'll take a while but a raft of new models will emerge and for a certain audience there will be people who value quality and are willing to pay for it.
The industry will need to recognise that it is no longer the biggest fish in the pond though and adapt accordingly.
It'll take a while but i'm fairly positive that new approaches will arise once we stop trying to fix everything with outdated solutions.

[Arpangel]

It'll take a while but i'm fairly positive that new approaches will arise once we stop trying to fix everything with outdated solutions.

Very true, and be prepared to have everything you've learned turned on its head as those who achieve great things do so in ways we never imagined.

[Drew Stephenson]

Absolutely!

[CS70]

Interesting what you say here, I do feel, from hearing other people's comments, and attitudes, that there is a feeling that anything to do with creative pursuits, in audio/recording or any other artistic field is somehow not of any real "value" anymore

A good point. But nothing really has changed from that point of view. We're talking economic value here (as Gnome's post): value that can be exchanged for food and a roof to sleep under.

Creative pursuits do not have an intrinsic value of that kind. They never had. There's no economic value in having fun yourself.

There is quite a lot of economic value, tough, in making others have fun.

Unlocking that value requires either that there is a demand/offer ratio is big enough (as Gnome discovered, it's very likely that the demand for studio building is vastly smaller than the offer) or skew that ratio by creating artificial scarcity (which is what branding is all about).

This latter is by far the most reasonable strategy in most cases. But it's far from easy - and it's never been. It requires complementary skills from the creative or engineering ones (and skills that not so often are present in the same person), focused activity and economic investment, and a fair bit of luck (i.e. random factors).

Nobody wants music: especially now, there's a lot of it around, way too much. But people may decide to want your music, of which there's only a limited amount, controlled by you.

All the rest is just tools to get there - they change, but the basic mechanism does not.

[Studio Support Gnome]

fair points most....

I would add that the studio building gig was only part of the service range I offered.... I can evidence a small amount of the other stuff, from the several Million views on youtube for broadcast mixes and live sound etc....

The primary issue, in all avenues seemed to be one of the gulf between what people wanted, and what they thought it should cost.

I was not, ever, a charitable trust , set up to fund the difference between those two positions.

if it takes 4 months to build , you are damn well paying for 4 months of labour.... Plus materials....

I i work on location for your project, be it recording, or building, or any other application of my fairly extensive skill set, then you are paying me for it..... I'm not here to do it for fun, or entertainment,..,.. I'd rather be home with my very beautiful wife, ..... I don't care how famous you are, how rich you are, or aren't, or how good you are on the hurdygurdy ... or even how much beer or cider is available, I committed to spending the rest of my life with my wife a long time ago, and I haven't changed my mind yet....

[Arpangel]

All the rest is just tools to get there - they change, but the basic mechanism does not.

I'm not sure, I think the basic mechanism has changed, a lot, along with the tools.
But, contrary to popular belief, you can stop progress, in the face of "you can't stop progress" maybe the envelope is the right size, and doesn't need pushing.

[CS70]

All the rest is just tools to get there - they change, but the basic mechanism does not.

I'm not sure, I think the basic mechanism has changed, a lot, along with the tools.
But, contrary to popular belief, you can stop progress, in the face of "you can't stop progress" maybe the envelope is the right size, and doesn't need pushing.

And how so?

To make a living of something you need customers. If the something is fairly common, or can be copied easily (even badly), the mechanism is to create scarcity, the easiest way is creating a brand. Hence the Kardashians.

[Drew Stephenson]

The primary issue, in all avenues seemed to be one of the gulf between what people wanted, and what they thought it should cost.

We're not alone in that though. Almost every project i've run has started with a hard discussion with the sponsor along the lines of "cheap, quick, good - pick two." And whilst they've all played along 90% have never really got it and somehow believed that their project was special in some way.
And then they start spouting buzzwords at you, like, 'Agile' or 'object oriented' or whatever other jargon they've picked up from the latest tech rag.

All of which is a long way round of saying, "it was ever thus."

[Drew Stephenson]

Hence the Kardashians.

Please let this be the only time i read that name in these pages!

[CS70]

The primary issue, in all avenues seemed to be one of the gulf between what people wanted, and what they thought it should cost.

We're not alone in that though. Almost every project i've run has started with a hard discussion with the sponsor along the lines of "cheap, quick, good - pick two." And whilst they've all played along 90% have never really got it and somehow believed that their project was special in some way.
And then they start spouting buzzwords at you, like, 'Agile' or 'object oriented' or whatever other jargon they've picked up from the latest tech rag.

All of which is a long way round of saying, "it was ever thus."

And yet people spends a lot of money on stuff that is not objectively better than others (or even, noticeably worse). Even for stuff that's truly better, often it's not as better as the economic difference is, by far - in objective terms.

In business, certain consultancies are expected to give certain prices, and some other can't - for what is essentially the same job and result. In music, people are willing to spend what, 100 pounds for, say, a Bon Jovi gig and .. ahem.. let's say a significantly smaller amount for one of mine. And (sorry Drew! ) the Kardies make a ton of money.

First, they all have a significant market. Secondly, the key is scarcity. Whatever you do, at least 80 per cent of your effort should be on creating scarcity (if it's not there already).

In bad cases, it's an reproachable illusion - the Voss water is just water, and still retails at 1000% the price of the already insanely priced regular bottled water. The Kardashians are.. people - there's 7 billions of them and counting. In good cases, you've got something on your hands that's truly rare and exceptional (a Ferrari, say, or inspired music) but then the work is to create the awareness and perception of it, which even then it's not a given at all.

Both cases require great investment. Both seem to betray the reason for which people do what they do in the first place - which is out of interest, creativity, enjoyment and other non-economical reasons. Enzo Ferrari cared mostly about driving and got bankrupt a few times and had his company bought by Fiat - where it became the enormous success it is.. after his death. Leo Fender was lucky and had Fullerton - two sides of a coin.

[MOF]

CS70 wrote:
Hence the Kardashians.
Please let this be the only time i read that name in these pages!

I’ve heard of them but don’t know any of their work. Are they any good?

[CS70]

CS70 wrote:
Hence the Kardashians.
Please let this be the only time i read that name in these pages!

I’ve heard of them but don’t know any of their work. Are they any good?

I noticed them when I read that one of the sisters is apparently the youngest billionaire of the planet.

[MOF]

I noticed them when I read that one of the sisters is apparently the youngest billionaire of the planet.

Is she the principal songwriter then?