Tim Gillett wrote:
I wonder if "with the lid in place" is always the best way, and if so why. It's certainly easier...
I suppose the answer is 'it depends' and it's the context that matters - much like recording any instrument.
Take a drum kit for example: you don't normally listen to drums naturally with your ears a couple of inches away from each head, yet that is a sound that's prevalent in a lot of music. Different styles might require a more distant approach.
For a convincing classical piano performance I'd say yes, it is the best way. The reason being that 'in the best seat in the house' of an auditorium / large room / hall - where most classical pieces would be recorded - you are listening to the piano as a whole (the lid being an integral part of that), not a specific zoomed-in 'unnatural' part of it.
The lid of a piano primarily directs and projects the sound of the instrument ( well, a lot of the mid/hf info anyway)
When you go to a concert, it’s probably in a nice sounding hall, and mic techniques can be geared up to include the acoustic of the hall, that means more distant placement.
If your in a domestic setting, or small room, the last thing you want is the sound of the room, as it’s probably going to sound bad. So it’s a compromise, and sometime far from ideal positions have to be used, at the expense of tonality.
Hugh Robjohns wrote:...Conventional classical piano recordings are always made with the lid in place...
I wonder if "with the lid in place" is always the best way, and if so why. It's certainly easier...
For classical, the audience hear it that way - so having the lid open keeps the same sound that the audience hear in a recital.
Well some of the audience in a certain narrow band of seating.
The piano lid has a vital protective function of keeping dust, dirt, foreign objects etc out of the delicate mechanism when not being played.
It was and still is used as a reflector because on balance it's often better than nothing, especially in an unamplified situation in a large venue which has rightfully applied all over the world for hundreds of years.
"Recording only" removes the need for this. OK, the lid translates the sound escaping vertically from the mechanism into a sort of horizontal projection - and imperfectly and unevenly at that. When recording, why not dispense with the lid's imperfections and mic the sound that the lid "hears"?
Tim Gillett wrote:When recording, why not dispense with the lid's imperfections and mic the sound that the lid "hears"?
Sure. You can if you want. And some certainly do in some situations.
The tonal balance is altered, obviously, but that can be accommodated as deemed appropriate or necessary through mic choice/placement and signal processing.
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound...
(But generally posting my own personal views and not necessarily those of SOS, the company or the magazine!)
In my world, things get less strange when I read the manual...
Re: Please help recording grand piano to eliminate phasey sound
I have done this many times. Removing the lid eliminates the 'clutter' caused by the very early very strong reflections. Comb filtering I guess.
The clarity of the stereo placement is greatly enhanced. There is no confusion whatsoever, the vast majority of the sound travels directly upwards. A stereo mic directly overhead picks up a perfect sonic image of the harp.
This obviously wouldn't work in a non amplified concert scenario. Or if one were trying to capture an audience perspective of a normally lidded piano.
It is noteworthy IMO how easy it is to remove the lid. Just two pop out pins.
I didn't realize how simply this looks. Just close the lid, remove the pins and carry the lid away. No tools. I think i can do this with my uninfected kids. Looks like the lid weighs less than 50 pounds.
With no lid, I hear very little difference from the playing position. The piano sounds the same sitting and playing it with or without the lid.
But the XY mics are now much clearer above the piano. Recording sounds more like the piano playing back to me in the monitors. I was able to move the XY mics farther up without the lid. Phase scope shows much less out-of-phase sound.
Mics out front sound the same as before.
Removing the lid has definitely cleaned up the tone of the XY mics above the piano to my ears.
I've been meaning for some time to record the piano from just behind the pianist i.e. from the pianist's hearing perspective. But the said pianist is so busy setting up phones, computers and what have you to be able to teach on line, that I really don't know when that will be ...
DC-Choppah wrote:With no lid, I hear very little difference from the playing position. The piano sounds the same sitting and playing it with or without the lid.
It will depend to some extent on the room acoustics (ceiling height and surface, mostly, but also proximity of walls etc), but in general you're quite right: playing with the lid open or removed makes little difference to the sound heard at the keyboard.
Mics out front sound the same as before.
You really are firmly wedded to using a plethora of mics, aren't you!
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound...
(But generally posting my own personal views and not necessarily those of SOS, the company or the magazine!)
In my world, things get less strange when I read the manual...
Re: Please help recording grand piano to eliminate phasey sound
Try walking around with something like a Zoom handy recorder, while someone is playing, try all sorts of positions, everything, then play it back and see what sounds best to you, it won’t be top notch, but you’ll definitely hear what’s good and what isn’t.
The you can put your main mics in the best position, hopefully.
I get the feeling this one will run and run though...I thought I had the record for the longest running thread on this....
Arpangel wrote:I know this may go against the grain, but, walk into a room, move around, until it sounds good to you, then put the mics right there.
You are quoting me again
John, I used to say this to Mike, and he always said it never worked.
It works for me - but it is not a "hard and fast" rule. It's a good indicator of where will be best in that specific acoustic and is the best place to try first - and move if it's not right.
The technique may not identify the absolute best place for the mics, simply because mics 'hear' things in a simpler way than we do -- they don't have all the automatic processing that we have to eliminate acoustic issues...
However, it will definitely help you identify places where the sound quality is very poor, and it will also help find a good direct/reverberance balance -- ie, identify the critical distance in the room.
In reality, we all tend to implemnent this technique unconciously anyway.
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound...
(But generally posting my own personal views and not necessarily those of SOS, the company or the magazine!)
In my world, things get less strange when I read the manual...
Re: Please help recording grand piano to eliminate phasey sound
Hugh Robjohns wrote:The technique may not identify the absolute best place for the mics, simply because mics 'hear' things in a simpler way than we do -- they don't have all the automatic processing that we have to eliminate acoustic issues...
Yes - you have to learn to listen like a microphone and be aware of what the room is doing. And not only listening like a human.
Many years ago I had a demonstration of what a room does and how it affects the sound and I have been aware of it ever since.
Best to have headphones on and monitor walking about the room and also close to instrument holding the mic(s) so you can hear where it is bad and where it is good. Also on a tallish stand so you can maybe check height as well. But maybe my idea of best piano sound will be different to yours ... with someone playing of course, which might be tricky if it's only you ...
I've really just recorded short sections in several places instead and chosen the best position - as the A said to the B.
Ariosto wrote:Best to have headphones on and monitor walking about the room and also close to instrument holding the mic(s) so you can hear where it is bad and where it is good.
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound...
(But generally posting my own personal views and not necessarily those of SOS, the company or the magazine!)
In my world, things get less strange when I read the manual...
Re: Please help recording grand piano to eliminate phasey sound
I've put the lid back on to record. Gone back to the mics out front and the XY mics over the strings come way down in the mix like Hugh preferred. I didn't ditch them completely, they are nice to have in the mix to change up the sound sometimes.
I did use the technique of moving around the mics with headphones and could make some small changes to the mics out front, but they do sound best pretty much where I had them out front. I have some very high isolation headphones that we use to track drums that worked well.
What I found was when mixing the 'lid off' piano tracks with other instruments, the piano had more of a thin, electric piano quality to it. I actually prefer the lid-on sound in the mix now after hearing it in context. Lid-on sounds more like a piano when all the instruments are there. Warmer, more complex, less bell-like. Note attacks are rounder and less sharp.
Removing the lid definitely changes the sound and removes the hollowed out phasey-sound I originally wanted help with. I will use that on some solo piano stuff. Great tip. And easy to do.
But the out front mics fix the phasey-sound too, and end up sounding more piano-like in the mix.
Thanks for all the help!
Gonna go back to focusing on the side of music again.
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound...
(But generally posting my own personal views and not necessarily those of SOS, the company or the magazine!)
In my world, things get less strange when I read the manual...
Wow. That was a long time ago!