Modes: don't you just love 'em?

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Re: Modes: don't you just love 'em?

Post by Sam Spoons »

merlyn wrote:A 13th chord contains all the notes of a scale so 13th chord = scale.


Not sure I agree with this specific paragraph, a 13th chord contains R, 3, 5, b7, 13 they don't routinely contain the 9 and 11.

Otherwise I concur, good post.
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Re: Modes: don't you just love 'em?

Post by CS70 »

GilesAnt wrote:I don't really think most musicians think on the fly.....


No differently than people think on the fly while speaking, for example, or think about which muscles to flex when moving their arms.

I suspect there's a fundamental similarity: you do not literally focus on the grammar, the sentence construction or even the words (or the muscles, the angles and the forces, and certainly you don't cognitively solve the numerous differential equations needed to catch that the tennis ball that your friend threw).. your cognitive system (your awareness, if you want) has a goal ad the brain has developed fast analytical subsystems that provide the correct pre-fabricated blocks in the right sequence and time (or not.. if you haven't practiced enough speaking, ball-catching or improvising).

The how, of course (how these systems are built, and how we go from a blank state to building them, and what lines exist between pre-existing foundations and grown systems dedicated to a specific task), is fascinating.

To me, the most fascinating question that exists.

Theory if you want is a starting point to start practicing.

But I digress. Apologies. :)
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Re: Modes: don't you just love 'em?

Post by GilesAnt »

Well the full quote was

I don't really think most musicians think on the fly.....time to solo on F Locrian or whatever.

In other words they are thinking instinctively rather than planning to use a specific mode on top of a particular chord or progression.
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Re: Modes: don't you just love 'em?

Post by GilesAnt »

Not sure I agree with this specific paragraph, a 13th chord contains R, 3, 5, b7, 13 they don't routinely contain the 9 and 11.


Is that a guitarists view? As a keyboard player my 'go to' 13th chord would be R b7 3 (10th) 13
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Re: Modes: don't you just love 'em?

Post by Sam Spoons »

It is a guitarists view, and we would not play all of those notes either, maybe R, 3,13, b7 or 5, b7, 3, 13, apart from the b7 and 13 all the others are pretty much optional. The limitations placed on us by six strings and four fingers mean we don't have the same freedom to voice chords as a keyboard player. We even sometimes (heaven forfend) have to rely on a bass player to provide a root :D
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Re: Modes: don't you just love 'em?

Post by CS70 »

GilesAnt wrote:Well the full quote was

I don't really think most musicians think on the fly.....time to solo on F Locrian or whatever.

In other words they are thinking instinctively rather than planning to use a specific mode on top of a particular chord or progression.


Yeah I wasn't disagreeing with you - the opposite, in fact.
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Re: Modes: don't you just love 'em?

Post by Eddy Deegan »

Sam Spoons wrote:We even sometimes (heaven forfend) have to rely on a bass player to provide a root :D


Get the bassist to play the 3rd and make the drummer tune the kick to the root ;)
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Re: Modes: don't you just love 'em?

Post by blinddrew »

You'll need to teach the bassist to count to three first... ;)
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Re: Modes: don't you just love 'em?

Post by merlyn »

Sam Spoons wrote:Otherwise I concur, good post.


Thanks, glad you liked it. :thumbup:

Sam Spoons wrote:Not sure I agree with this specific paragraph, a 13th chord contains R, 3, 5, b7, 13 they don't routinely contain the 9 and 11.


I think it's helpful to equate a 13th chord and a scale. You could look on jazz improvisation as turning all chords into 13th chords by using the upper extensions melodically. Chords are stacked thirds, scales are stacked seconds. If you go up in thirds and keep going you get a 13th arpeggio and then you're back to the root.

You'll know that an add9 chord and a 9 chord are different -- an add9 skips over the b7, so the chord you gave as an example is a 7add13. 13 means R, 3, 5, b7, 9, 11, 13 even if not all those notes are played. Of course you don't have to play the mixolydian mode on a 13th chord -- it's just the 'inside' mode for this chord.
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Re: Modes: don't you just love 'em?

Post by Kwackman »

blinddrew wrote:You'll need to teach the bassist to count to three first... ;)


:bouncy::bouncy::clap:
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Re: Modes: don't you just love 'em?

Post by Sam Spoons »

merlyn wrote:
Sam Spoons wrote:Otherwise I concur, good post.


Thanks, glad you liked it. :thumbup:

Sam Spoons wrote:Not sure I agree with this specific paragraph, a 13th chord contains R, 3, 5, b7, 13 they don't routinely contain the 9 and 11.


I think it's helpful to equate a 13th chord and a scale. You could look on jazz improvisation as turning all chords into 13th chords by using the upper extensions melodically. Chords are stacked thirds, scales are stacked seconds. If you go up in thirds and keep going you get a 13th arpeggio and then you're back to the root.

You'll know that an add9 chord and a 9 chord are different -- an add9 skips over the b7, so the chord you gave as an example is a 7add13. 13 means R, 3, 5, b7, 9, 11, 13 even if not all those notes are played. Of course you don't have to play the mixolydian mode on a 13th chord -- it's just the 'inside' mode for this chord.


Yeah I get that, I deleted a sentence from my post which ran (more or less) "the only thing differentiates a 6th chord from a 13th is the b7". But I don't agree that the 13th should have the 9 and 11 in there (even if unplayed), and I can't ever remember coming across an 'add 13' chord.

TBF it's just a matter of how we name the chords and, also TBF, I'm not a jazzer (only pretend). Realistically speaking I think we are singing off different versions of the same hymn sheet :D

From a guitar perspective this article, randomly Googled, is how I see it in use (and it does agree with you on the 9 and 11 been included but, in practical terms unplayed).

https://www.jazz-guitar-licks.com/pages/chords/dominant-13-chords-13-guitar-diagrams.html
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Re: Modes: don't you just love 'em?

Post by merlyn »

Yes, leaving out the 11th is a triumph of practice over theory. :) Theoretically the 11th is there and it was used as a step to get to the 13th, but it's not played because it clashes with the major 3rd. For a dominant 11th sound the chord is called 9sus -- which means 'don't play the 3rd'. 3rd or 4th in a major or dominant chord, not both. You can play all the notes in a m11 or m13. The hymn sheet I'm familiar with is this :

Image
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