Modes: don't you just love 'em?

[Sam Spoons]

Absolutely got it in one Andy. My bezzy Jazz playing mate (and, incidentally your namesake) reckons he spent several years practicing 8 hours a day learning to play jazz and it cost him his marriage (I think there's at least a bit of exaggeration in there but he is pretty damn good, and still a very nice guy..... FWIW His brother is the model railway guy I pointed Arpy at in another thread).

Shouldn't that be "write 1080P lines"?

[Terrible.dee]

I've been in music for years and the only use I have yet to find for modes is as loose groupings of notes that may or may not sound good when used together.

The fact that they are all the Ionian but begun on different scale degrees seems to me the most useless bit of information.

The best advice I ever got regarding such things was "There are lots of scales! Try inventing your own! It's fun!"

Yep....just make your own.

It's worth learning so as to be able to pick out intervals and know how they sound together.

So, I'm not saying DON'T learn them.

What I a saying is music was initially documented not as an accessible system of notation, but as a CODE that would keep out all but those who were chosen to be let in.

A LOT of traditional notation and what not is completely archaic and useless

[merlyn]

There seems to be a new category of skeptic : the mode denier.

This conspiracy theory holds that every reference to modes on the internet, every book about modes, every music college course involving modes is in fact concealing the secret that modes don't really exist.

It's possible to short-circuit the contentious word 'mode' and replace it with 'chord scale'. This differentiates the use of modes in folk or classical music and the use of modes in jazz -- using 'chord scales' in jazz means the chord and the scale are the same thing.

A 13th chord contains all the notes of a scale so 13th chord = scale. If we have a four note chord like G7 four notes are already given -- to make a complete scale we only have to add three notes -- the 9th, the 11th and the 13th. If the chord is a 9th then there are only two notes not already in the chord. If the chord is D9#11 there is only one note -- the 13th left to add to make a scale.

There is some doubt above as to whether anyone plays B locrian. B locrian = Bm7b5 which is a pretty common chord, so yes, they do. Vertically Bm7b5, horizontally B locrian.

No-one can tell you what modes are -- you have to find out for yourself

If you improvise around in C major I would think you hear phrases resolving to the note C. You're playing C major. Now if you can hear the resolution as B you're playing B locrian.

[GilesAnt]

There seems to be a new category of skeptic : the mode denier.

I believe....I believe

The fact that they are all the Ionian but begun on different scale degrees seems to me the most useless bit of information.

I think you are rather missing the point here. If you can sense a difference between a tune in a major key (Ionian mode) and one in a minor key (Aeolian mode - more or less), then it is only a matter of degree to sensing the difference between tunes in the other modes as well. And yet the notes of a tune in C Ionian and A Aeolian are identical, i.e. the white notes on the piano.

A LOT of traditional notation and what not is completely archaic and useless

What sort of things are you referring to - a lot depends on what your style of music is really. There is plenty of mileage in these old modes I reckon.

[Sam Spoons]

A 13th chord contains all the notes of a scale so 13th chord = scale.

Not sure I agree with this specific paragraph, a 13th chord contains R, 3, 5, b7, 13 they don't routinely contain the 9 and 11.

Otherwise I concur, good post.

[CS70]

I don't really think most musicians think on the fly.....

No differently than people think on the fly while speaking, for example, or think about which muscles to flex when moving their arms.

I suspect there's a fundamental similarity: you do not literally focus on the grammar, the sentence construction or even the words (or the muscles, the angles and the forces, and certainly you don't cognitively solve the numerous differential equations needed to catch that the tennis ball that your friend threw).. your cognitive system (your awareness, if you want) has a goal ad the brain has developed fast analytical subsystems that provide the correct pre-fabricated blocks in the right sequence and time (or not.. if you haven't practiced enough speaking, ball-catching or improvising).

The how, of course (how these systems are built, and how we go from a blank state to building them, and what lines exist between pre-existing foundations and grown systems dedicated to a specific task), is fascinating.

To me, the most fascinating question that exists.

Theory if you want is a starting point to start practicing.

But I digress. Apologies.

[GilesAnt]

Well the full quote was

I don't really think most musicians think on the fly.....time to solo on F Locrian or whatever.

In other words they are thinking instinctively rather than planning to use a specific mode on top of a particular chord or progression.

[GilesAnt]

Not sure I agree with this specific paragraph, a 13th chord contains R, 3, 5, b7, 13 they don't routinely contain the 9 and 11.

Is that a guitarists view? As a keyboard player my 'go to' 13th chord would be R b7 3 (10th) 13

[Sam Spoons]

It is a guitarists view, and we would not play all of those notes either, maybe R, 3,13, b7 or 5, b7, 3, 13, apart from the b7 and 13 all the others are pretty much optional. The limitations placed on us by six strings and four fingers mean we don't have the same freedom to voice chords as a keyboard player. We even sometimes (heaven forfend) have to rely on a bass player to provide a root

[CS70]

Well the full quote was

I don't really think most musicians think on the fly.....time to solo on F Locrian or whatever.

In other words they are thinking instinctively rather than planning to use a specific mode on top of a particular chord or progression.

Yeah I wasn't disagreeing with you - the opposite, in fact.

[Eddy Deegan]

We even sometimes (heaven forfend) have to rely on a bass player to provide a root

Get the bassist to play the 3rd and make the drummer tune the kick to the root

[Drew Stephenson]

You'll need to teach the bassist to count to three first...

[merlyn]

Otherwise I concur, good post.

Thanks, glad you liked it.

Not sure I agree with this specific paragraph, a 13th chord contains R, 3, 5, b7, 13 they don't routinely contain the 9 and 11.

I think it's helpful to equate a 13th chord and a scale. You could look on jazz improvisation as turning all chords into 13th chords by using the upper extensions melodically. Chords are stacked thirds, scales are stacked seconds. If you go up in thirds and keep going you get a 13th arpeggio and then you're back to the root.

You'll know that an add9 chord and a 9 chord are different -- an add9 skips over the b7, so the chord you gave as an example is a 7add13. 13 means R, 3, 5, b7, 9, 11, 13 even if not all those notes are played. Of course you don't have to play the mixolydian mode on a 13th chord -- it's just the 'inside' mode for this chord.

[Kwackman]

You'll need to teach the bassist to count to three first...

[Sam Spoons]

Otherwise I concur, good post.

Thanks, glad you liked it.

Not sure I agree with this specific paragraph, a 13th chord contains R, 3, 5, b7, 13 they don't routinely contain the 9 and 11.

I think it's helpful to equate a 13th chord and a scale. You could look on jazz improvisation as turning all chords into 13th chords by using the upper extensions melodically. Chords are stacked thirds, scales are stacked seconds. If you go up in thirds and keep going you get a 13th arpeggio and then you're back to the root.

You'll know that an add9 chord and a 9 chord are different -- an add9 skips over the b7, so the chord you gave as an example is a 7add13. 13 means R, 3, 5, b7, 9, 11, 13 even if not all those notes are played. Of course you don't have to play the mixolydian mode on a 13th chord -- it's just the 'inside' mode for this chord.

Yeah I get that, I deleted a sentence from my post which ran (more or less) "the only thing differentiates a 6th chord from a 13th is the b7". But I don't agree that the 13th should have the 9 and 11 in there (even if unplayed), and I can't ever remember coming across an 'add 13' chord.

TBF it's just a matter of how we name the chords and, also TBF, I'm not a jazzer (only pretend). Realistically speaking I think we are singing off different versions of the same hymn sheet

From a guitar perspective this article, randomly Googled, is how I see it in use (and it does agree with you on the 9 and 11 been included but, in practical terms unplayed).

https://www.jazz-guitar-licks.com/pages/chords/dominant-13-chords-13-guitar-diagrams.html

[merlyn]

Yes, leaving out the 11th is a triumph of practice over theory. Theoretically the 11th is there and it was used as a step to get to the 13th, but it's not played because it clashes with the major 3rd. For a dominant 11th sound the chord is called 9sus -- which means 'don't play the 3rd'. 3rd or 4th in a major or dominant chord, not both. You can play all the notes in a m11 or m13. The hymn sheet I'm familiar with is this :

[GilesAnt]

I'm not quite sure how this discussion of complex chord voicings relates to modes. If anything, I suspect it might reinforce the suspicion of the earlier poster (terrible.dee) that modes are pretty much useless. However I think merlyn has previously made a valuable distinction between the classical/folk use of modes for truly modal music, and the use of modal terminology in jazz.

I wouldn't normally use the term add13 for a dominant 13th chord, but I suppose it depends how prescriptive you want your chord notation system to be.

I know we have been here before, but the mixolydian is not necessarily the 'inside' mode for improvising. As with any dominant 7th based chord all you need is the tonic scale. Clearly it is debatable but I don't see the advantage in complicating things - particularly for beginners.

[Sam Spoons]

Yes, leaving out the 11th is a triumph of music over theory.

FTFY

I'm prepared to concede I'm wrong in this case. I'm not formally trained in music theory but have picked up a fair bit over the last 55 years or so of playing guitar.

Interesting discussion

[merlyn]

I'm not quite sure how this discussion of complex chord voicings relates to modes.

The concept of chord scales means modes are linked to chords. A chord symbol is also a mode symbol. A mode or chord scale tells us the sound to use, harmonically or melodically. The more notes specified in a chord symbol, the less choice there is as to which mode to use, up to a 13th, which tells us the mode exactly.

This is the same information presented in two different ways :

Ionian -- maj13
Dorian -- min13
Phrygian -- minb13b9
Lydian -- maj13#11
Mixolydian -- 13
Aeolian -- minb13
Locrian -- minb13b9b5

I know we have been here before, but the mixolydian is not necessarily the 'inside' mode for improvising. As with any dominant 7th based chord all you need is the tonic scale. Clearly it is debatable but I don't see the advantage in complicating things - particularly for beginners.

That's fine for diatonic chord progressions. But take The Girl from Ipanema as an example. You might find yourself playing this tune


According to the key signature this tune is in the key of F. The first bar has an F maj7 chord and the melody has the 9th and 13th, so the mode is Ionian. Now a G7 chord with a 13th in the melody. Is the concept of the tonic scale really helpful? Is it not more straightforward to think 'G Mixolydian'?

[Sam Spoons]

Interesting you should choose that tune as I have just recorded a version (partly as a way of getting my luddite drummer mate to work with Reaper and Dropbox for remote collaboration).

Did I think of G7 with a 13th in the melody or G mixolydian? No I just played it. My ear tells me which are the right notes, which are the wrong notes and which are the right wrong notes and which are the wrong wrong notes (but I may be wrong ).*

My point is :- yes, if I knew the modes I might not find myself playing the "wrong wrong notes" quite so often but TBH I know which those notes are and if I practiced more I'd become better at avoiding them without needing an intimate knowledge of modes (though I suspect I would have it without knowing I had it...).

I guess improvising players play with a 'brain>fingers>ears>brain' feedback loop which monitors note choices, maybe knowledge of modes is akin to a 'lookahead' feature?

* 'right notes' = obviously, 'inside'
'right wrong notes' = 'outside'
'wrong wrong notes' = 'avant garde' (or "far out man") (or, in my case "cock up")