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Re: Yoshimi extras

Post by Martin Walker »

blinddrew wrote:That is a fine organ sound. :)

It's a stunning organ sound. I still think the really low notes need a bit more welly though ;)

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Re: Yoshimi extras

Post by Folderol »

Thank you both :)
Please don't forget this is just a quick and dirty version and only one rank of... errr... pipes. Look how few steps it took.

For a more detailed full organ (from my Collection) I would use '64ft Organ' for the pedals, as it has a real 'rumble' component, and 'Great Organ' for the main console. For other pipe ranks I would use 'Thin Pipe', and (from Companion) 'Stopped Pipe' and 'Cathedral Pipe Organ'. At a push 'Post Horn' can work quite well with the others.

PS.
64ft should really be 32ft - I got mixed up with the pipe ranks :blush:

What did you think of the chimes?
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Re: Yoshimi extras

Post by Folderol »

LFO {no that's not flatulence} :)
Yoshimi has a slightly odd characteristic with these. The depth control actually goes to 200%.

If you have a sinewave shape, it doubles the LFO frequency in exactly the same way as a fullwave rectifer does to ordinary AC, at the same time the shape of the modulation is changed in an interesting way - especially if you just go to 150%

If it's a saw wave, it just doubles the frequency but with varying amplitude and mark-space ratio. A ramp becomes a sort of glitchy saw, and a square is a sort of glitch with a reducing square component as you increase amplitude.

I haven't put a 'scope on the other shapes :lol:
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Re: Yoshimi extras

Post by Martin Walker »

Fascinating - I should you should start a Yoshimi blog Will.

I'd certainly follow it!

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Re: Yoshimi extras

Post by Folderol »

It's a nice idea Martin, but once you start something like that, you have to keep it up - there's nothing sadder than an abandoned blog. Besides which, I barely have enough time for all the things I'm already trying to do :(
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Re: Yoshimi extras

Post by Drew Stephenson »

Doesn't have to be just you though, a Yoshimi community blog might be worth a thought?
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Re: Yoshimi extras

Post by Martin Walker »

Indeed - I'd love to find out more about the community and all the different things they are doing with Yoshimi.

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Re: Yoshimi extras

Post by Folderol »

Well, I must say I haven't thought of that, but surely it still needs someone to manage the forum, dispose of spammers etc. and that's not going to be me. Indeed, I'm so saturated with this stuff, that from Wednesday through to the following Monday, I will be taking a sabbatical from all things technological, meandering around the New Forest.
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Re: Yoshimi extras

Post by Drew Stephenson »

Depends how you set it up and what you want it to do really. The world is very much your mollusc.
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Re: Yoshimi extras

Post by Folderol »

Well, after my break from all things tech and a mental reset, I've decided that this is yet another thing I simply can't get involved in. I've put a post on the Yoshimi email list, asking if people are interested, and for someone to to take it on. If someone does, then I'll probably contribute from time to time but that's all.

Currently, this is what I'm already involved in:
Yoshimi development (the biggie)
Yoshimi Advanced User Manual
Yoshimi Website
Yoshimi Users list
Yoshimi Pi development
New Yoshimi Pi website
Preparation for November Linux Audio Conference (assuming it takes place).
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Re: Yoshimi extras

Post by Drew Stephenson »

And what do you do in your spare time?
;)

I would suggest that with the blog the first thing is to keep it simple, the second is to encourage your contributors to pace themselves.
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Re: Yoshimi extras

Post by Folderol »

Unfortunately a bug has been discovered concerning detune. This gives the wrong detune degrees for both fine and coarse detuning. However it only affects AddSynth Global. The individual voices, modulators, SubSynth and PadSynth are fine.

This has been present for over a year, so affects all Yoshimi Pi units out there. It is corrected in the current 'master' for those wanting to fetch it.
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Re: Yoshimi extras

Post by Folderol »

For those diving into the instrument editors...

I had someone rather puzzled by the fact that he didn't seem to get much response from the frequency envelope controls. The reason was that he had a very short amplitude envelope.

An excerpt from the notes!

"
The first thing to keep in mind is that amplitude envelopes (particularly release time) set the point at which a note ceases. Frequency/filter envelopes can be shorter, so their effect stops part way, but if they are longer, the last part will be ineffective.

Across all three engines, and kits (if kit mode is active) it is whichever is the longest that sets the overall time of the note, and you may well hear other sections stop if the times are sufficiently different.

Also, within AddSynth itself, it is which ever voice has the longest envelope that sets the overall voice time, and if you set voices with very different characteristics you can hear the shorter ones finish before the overall sound stops. Bear in mind, that each voice can also have a start delay set, so you can get a late sound pickup that is then the last bit you hear, even if it's quite short. However, if the start time of one voice is after all the others have finished it will never sound.

This sort of idea works best with 'Forced Release' disabled.

An unexpected twist to this, is that taking the combined voice envelope time against the main (global) AddSynth envelope, although attack and decay times follow the above pattern, it is which ever (the voice group or the global value) has the shortest release that sets the AddSynth time as a whole. This can really catch you out!

With regard to the modulator amplitude envelopes. They don't change the overall time, but if they are shorter than their voice length (or any voice that the modulator is slaved to) the modulation may end a bit strangely. If they are longer, then part of their action will be missed. Also, when using the Morph type, you must have an envelope set, as this is what controls the way the sound morphs between the voice oscillator and the modulator one.

Finally, there is what I believe to be a bug that goes back to Zyn 2.2.1 - original Zyn :)

If an AddSynth voice is enabled, it's amplitude envelope time is active, even if the envelope is apparently deactivated and not editable. Oh, and by default all the voice times are quite long, so again you could be puzzled as to why a sound is longer than you expected. Because this has always been there I don't propose to change it. To do so would quite likely alter many existing instrument patches, but do keep it in mind.
"
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Re: Yoshimi extras

Post by Martin Walker »

Thanks Will - there's a huge amount to take in with Yoshimi Pi, so your gentle remainders and clarifications are most welcome!

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Re: Yoshimi extras

Post by Folderol »

I've been looking at aftertouch again (although I can only test channel A/T here).

First there is a bug which I need to sort out.
If you change the A/T settings while it is active (note presses reasonably hard) it will mess up the settings until you do a reset.

Moving on from that, currently the settings aren't saved anywhere, and I actually wondering if they should be. It's very much a performance issue, and dependent on both having an appropriate keyboard as well as the selected instrument patch. Presumably if it was saved it should be to the patch rather than the more general settings.

Also, as A/T is not currently part of anything it won't be cleared by changing to another instrument patch - which has some interesting consequences! I should probably alter that :lol:

Finally, a couple of points about the Mod wheel generally. This has no effect on the SubSynth engine as there are no LFOs for it to change. On AddSynth it is the global frequency LFO it changes, not the individual voice ones. It also works between zero and the current LFO level setting - so set at zero (the default for a basic sound) = no modulation.

P.S.
Thoughts and suggestions welcome.
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Re: Yoshimi extras

Post by Folderol »

Yoshimi's little band of helpers (TM) have been busy again.
One of them has just completed a very nice extension to LFOs.
Within a few hours of us notifying the users list that it was in the current 'master' another 'helper' ran with it and produced a youtube vid of his first experiments with it and Yoshimi being controlled by Pure Data.
I recommend watching it full screen. The image is still unfortunately a bit fuzzy, but at lest you can see what controls he is playing with.
It's here:
https://youtu.be/BKbQ6QgQogg

Oh, and he's also been using the new window resize feature :tongue:
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Re: Yoshimi extras

Post by Martin Walker »

Very pleasing demo Will :thumbup:

Tempo syncing of parameters via MIDI Clock can add a lot of real-world realism, particularly with vibrato-based parameters including LFO freq and filter freq, as this is what string players tend to do anyway.

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Re: Yoshimi extras

Post by Folderol »

A question came up today, variations of which have been frequently asked.
"Can you get Yoshimi to use an incoming waveform?"
The answer is, basically, No.

To a degree it could be done for the PadSynth engine, as that is a wavetable generator. However, the result would not be as good as the internal oscillator. For AddSynth and SubSynth it's quite impossible.

A simplification of the reason why, is that these sounds are directly calculated in real time sample by sample. Hardly any of the controls directly touch the sound output. They adjust the formulae that are used to generate the sound.

It is this that gives Yoshimi its character. If you go right into the waveform editor of Addsynth you will find that not only can you change the harmonics in real time, but also various filters and shaping controls - including real-time randomisation. You can't do that with a wavetable based engine. The best you can do is period based adjustment, with interpolation to take out the jaggies.

Please bear in mind that this is not the same as morphing between two waveshapes. In that situation the actual forms are fixed, so the mathematics (while way beyond me) are comparatively simple.
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Re: Yoshimi extras

Post by Drew Stephenson »

For a moment there I almost thought I understood something...

...and it's gone.
;)
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Re: Yoshimi extras

Post by Martin Walker »

Thanks Will - I can confirm that this made perfect sense to me, and that I will at some point be exploring the possibilities.

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Re: Yoshimi extras

Post by Folderol »

Something that is far from obvious is the way you can build up and then actively modify multi-layered sounds. This is something I discovered myself some years ago, but then became so 'but of course!' that I didn't think to mention it before.

To see this in action, from my 'Will_Godfrey_Collection' bank, select 'Master Synth High'.
Don't play it yet :)

First wind the part volume down to about -10dB

Click on the edit button, and in the new window click on Kit Edit.

On the square blue surrounded 'Mute' buttons, check all of them except the top one 'Breathy Pad'

Hold down a chord, then uncheck 'Ice Field'. Nothing seems to happen... until you press more keys. Then do the same with 'Smooth', and finally 'Full Strings' to hear the full sound - You'll hear why I said to wind the volume down :)

But there's more!
Any check box that has a blue surround is MIDI-learnable, and these particular ones are next-note so you can silently switch them while playing, and if you have a controller with enough buttons, you can learn them and dynamically change these multi-layered patches while playing.

Notice you can also switch the individual engines of and on. However, switching on a padsynth one for the first time will briefly cancel all sound on that part - this is because it has to generate the wavetable.

P.S.
That particular patch is something like 10 years old now :)
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Re: Yoshimi extras

Post by Folderol »

Ho Hum, every day a learning day :)
I've just made an interesting discovery about Yoshimi's noise options.
I started with an AddSynth engine, and went straight into Voice 1, setting the sound to spot noise.
I then switched to voice 2, enabled it and set the sound to pink noise, and listening for a decent balance wound the volume down to about -20dB.

Backing out I went into the instrument Effects window, and based on what Elf has said about noise in the 2500 (see! I do read other stuff) set phaser and tweaked the depth down to 50%. That sounded quite nice when pressing a few keys on the middle of the keyboard, and it's very much velocity sensitive.

Checking The 'Analog' switch made an interesting change, and then 'Sub' made it quite surf-like. I fiddled with the frequency control a bit, but actually preferred the default.

The icing on the cake was to go to effect 2, and set it to Reverb.

P.S. Almost all effects controls are real time.
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Re: Yoshimi extras

Post by Folderol »

How to make a Yoshimi flute starting from the basic 'Simple Sound'.

Go into AddSynth voice 1, waveform. Set the Square base function.
Back out to the voice itself and enable the amplitude envelope
Set attack to about 13mS
This gives you the basic slightly hollow sound.

Select voice 2 and enable it.
Change sound to white noise.
Set volume to about - 30dB, Vel Sens to about -5dB
Set D.dt to about 900mS, S.val to about -20dB and Stretch to zero
This gives you a burst of wind noise.

Go further back, enable SubSynth and go into it (we change quite a lot here).
Set volume to about -24dB, Vel Sens to -8dB
Set attack to 13mS, D.dt to 10 Sec, S.Val to -10dB
Go along to the bandwidth slider and set it to 75 (approx 110 cents bandwidth)
Finally step up Octave to 4
This gives you a broad band pitch relative background wind noise.

It now sounds pretty good but not quite there, so we are going to apply some magic :shh:

Go back to AddSynth and into Resonance. Enable it.
Set Max dB to somewhere between 35 and 40dB
Click on Rnd3 - see if you like the sound (best on lower middle pitches)
If you do, save the patch immediately! You may never be able to repeat it :o

Generally Rnd3 and occasionally Rnd2 give best results.

Enjoy your new flute :bouncy:
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Re: Yoshimi extras

Post by Martin Walker »

Thanks for that info Will - sometimes having a step-by-step guide can kick-start you into learning more :thumbup:

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