Long, dark reverb and how to use it?

[manwilde]

Hello all. I thought about posting this on the mix critique subforum, and of course I´d be very interested on your thoughts about this mix as a whole, but what I´m really struggling with more than anything is the use of reverb on this one (actually, in all my mixes... ). I hope this is the right place to post this topic.
This is a cover of the very famous "Roads" by Portishead. Very sparse setting here: voice and two electric guitars. Whatever might be added as an overdub will have to sit around the sound of this.
I´m aiming for a very long and dark reverb here; something huge but very intimate at the same time, if that makes sense. I really could use your help and tips on appropriate reverb types, eq, compression, panning, predelay and whatnot.
So far I´ve been toying whith three reverbs: a very short one, a medium plate and the loooong one, where all the "meat" should be. After some work the mix has gotten better, but I don´t feel satisfied at all.
The playing is a bit sloppy sometimes, this was the second time they rehearsed the song. We´ll soon get back to it for another take.
Listen to the mix here https://www.dropbox.com/s/kljxdx4bkgz8qxs/ROADS.mp3?dl=0
I really appreciate your help.

[horiprod]

First of all, it sounds great, and your singer has really captured Beth Gibbons feel (and sound). You don't say how you recorded this, wether ITB or OTB, however in my humble opinion you couldn't go far wrong with an old-school Lexicon hardware reverb which many folk would say sit far better in the mix. Also, because of their topology, not too bright either - a product of the technology at the time ... If you can't find a 224X, maybe even a PCM70 - these are reverbs I use all the time. My first post here, although an audio professional for about 45 years!

[Drew Stephenson]

something huge but very intimate at the same time,

Not had a listen yet, but if you're after this ^^^ then a large space with a long pre-delay will make it feel like the singer is very close but in a big hall. The longer pre-delay makes it seem like the source is having to travel a long way to the back wall and back again. Taking a bit of top and bottom off the return will also help add to that idea of distance.

[manwilde]

@horipod: Thanks a lot, and welcome here!. This was recorded ITB, Focusrite Octopre, Rme Babyface, Reaper. Left guitar is an Strat through a Fender Blues Junior, EV RE20 on axis about over the speaker´s edge, two inches away from the grille. Right guitar is a 4 string tenor Telecaster through a Yamaha THR10, Avantone CK- 1 with hypercardioid capsule off-axis pointing at one of the speaker´s cone about 4 inches away. Voice is a Shure SM58, no pop filter and singer not too close almost all of the time.
I´m all ITB, using mostly convolution reverbs (I´ve tried some freeware algorithmics also). Some of the impulses I tried were from Lexicon plates but I ended up using something else. I´ll keep on trying things and will go back to the Lexicon impulses. I know it´s not the real thing but it´s all I´ve got...
@blinddrew: yes, I´m feeling finding the right predelay is crucial here. If I set too long it feels weird and disconnected, not natural at all. If I make too short somehow it all sounds too wet to me.
I´ve added now a delay buss, very subtle and low passed. It seems the combination of both reverb and delay is getting me closer...
I´ll try to refine my settings and balances and follow any further advice.
Thanks a lot!

[The Elf]

It's all about the pre-delay, yes... but if you're aiming to create a sense of depth in a mix then it's all about different pre-delays for different sources for contrast - an overall single pre-delay wash won't cut it.

I'm not familiar with the music being emulated, so this is just a rule of thumb.

[Kwackman]

There was a very helpful article on reverb and what the tweaking does in the May issue.
https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques ... e-knobs-do

[manwilde]

Wow, very interesting indeed... so say the band is my example is playing in a church, all three of them lined up horizontally from left to right and roughly the same distance from me... What predelay differences could there be between them, and also, would you pan the reverb sends from each one opposite from the dry signal, which is what I´m doing now, or just dead center, or something else?.
Thank you very much, really need your advice here. It´s all about experimenting, but there sure is some theoretical reasonig that I should be aware of in advance.

[manwilde]

Thanks for that link, Kwackman!. Unbelievable I just skipped that one!

[The Elf]

Wow, very interesting indeed... so say the band is my example is playing in a church, all three of them lined up horizontally from left to right and roughly the same distance from me... What predelay differences could there be between them, and also, would you pan the reverb sends from each one opposite from the dry signal, which is what I´m doing now, or just dead center, or something else?.
Thank you very much, really need your advice here. It´s all about experimenting, but there sure is some theoretical reasonig that I should be aware of in advance.

That being the case then simple predelays might not be all you need. I'm brought to mind of the facilities in Altiverb, where it is possible to place the source such that left/right and front-back depth are calculated in the reflection patterns.

[CS70]

+1 for an old lexicon box. I have and use all kinds of digital reverbs and in the end I get the results I want, but for some reason the immediacy of a good rack reverb gets me usually there much faster. Not really sure why as they do the same thing, I guess is the immediacy of the knobs and how I can fine tune while listening better than with a mouse. Since most hardware reverbs are now pretty inexpensive, it may be worth a try

[manwilde]

In our project studio I have access to a TC Electronic DVR250-DT that sounds very nice and has physical controls. If I want to take the project home I have to print the effect and live with it. Not that that is a bad thing, but...
And here at home I´ve been lent for a few days an Eventide Space. It is fantastic also.
I was trying to mix this song with what I normally have, trying to avoid the feeling that I "need" any of those two. I´m sure that if use any of those (and I might) the results would be good, but I like to think that I can fight my way to a nice feeling of space without resorting to new toys...

[Arpangel]

Things like this are really impossible to address, as they rely on how things work within the context of a mix, and to give advice I would really have to be there listening to your music, and even then, what I might think works you might not, so I’m not even going to attempt to say anything too specific.
But, I will say, I had an Eventide H3000 for many years, and that had a very useful feature, that was the ability to adjust your position in the space of a reverb program, or "front-to-back" of hall position. To get the effect you mention, I would dial in a very close-to-front setting, but with a long reverb decay, so it was like I was standing next to someone in a very large space, very haunting, with just a touch of the late reflections. This was much more complex than just adjusting pre-delay.
There are other units with this feature, but they don't spring to mind right now.
It might be interesting, Adrian Utley of Portishead loves the Eventide Space.
I had a Lexicon 224 for awhile, and that didn’t come close to what I could do with the H3000 for some effects, it’s completely different, but you might want to check out some of Diamanda Galas's work, including the track "Gloomy Sunday" on her album "The Singer" as there are some fantastic examples of long dark reverbs but over a very intimate voice.

[manwilde]

Diamada Galas has been sleeping on my music collection for some time now, time to eventually check her out. Thanks a lot for the hints!.
One thing that I find limiting loading impulses in Reaverb is not having the choice of adjusting early and late reflections. Is this so in all IR loaders?.
Of course you can do that in many algorithcimc reverbs, but I don´t get along well with VoS EpicVerb (and it´s not true stereo) and I haven´t worked enough yet with Voxengo OldSkoolVerb. Those are the two algorithmic reverbs that allow adjusting the reflections that I have.

[James Perrett]

One thing that I find limiting loading impulses in Reaverb is not having the choice of adjusting early and late reflections. Is this so in all IR loaders?.

In Reaverb you can use separate early reflection and main reflection IR's and use the trim/gain/stretch utility after the early reflections but before the main reverb to control just the early reflections. You can then use another trim/gain/stretch to control the overall reverb.

Alternatively, if you want even more control, you can use separate instances of Reaverb for the early reflection and main reverb.

I must admit that I've only just discovered the delights of chaining the different parts of Reaverb. It badly needs a few factory presets to show off what it can do.

[manwilde]

I hadn´t thought of that! I definitely have to try it!. Thanks, James!

[Arpangel]

Diamada Galas has been sleeping on my music collection for some time now, time to eventually check her out. Thanks a lot for the hints!.
One thing that I find limiting loading impulses in Reaverb is not having the choice of adjusting early and late reflections. Is this so in all IR loaders?.
Of course you can do that in many algorithcimc reverbs, but I don´t get along well with VoS EpicVerb (and it´s not true stereo) and I haven´t worked enough yet with Voxengo OldSkoolVerb. Those are the two algorithmic reverbs that allow adjusting the reflections that I have.

Strange isn’t it, EpicVerb is my all time fave software verb.
Very spacey, floaty, very Lexicon.

[manwilde]

I used to use it more in the past, but stopped doing it so often when I found out that panning the send from a track to the verb didn´t have any effect on the recieving end...

[Arpangel]

I used to use it more in the past, but stopped doing it so often when I found out that panning the send from a track to the verb didn´t have any effect on the recieving end...

If the source was stereo I’d normally just ad a bit of verb via a send/return, so I didn’t notice it, in fact, I don’t think I ever used it "straight through"

[manwilde]

If the source was stereo I’d normally just ad a bit of verb via a send/return, so I didn’t notice it, in fact, I don’t think I ever used it "straight through"

And that´s how I normally use it as well, but as I said if you pan the send from the dry track to the reverb (or the recieve in the reverb track) EpicVerb still sounds the same as if that pan was dead center... Lately I do this more often, specially with rhythm guitars.

[Arpangel]

If the source was stereo I’d normally just ad a bit of verb via a send/return, so I didn’t notice it, in fact, I don’t think I ever used it "straight through"

And that´s how I normally use it as well, but as I said if you pan the send from the dry track to the reverb (or the recieve in the reverb track) EpicVerb still sounds the same as if that pan was dead center... Lately I do this more often, specially with rhythm guitars.

Weird, although I can’t say it’s been a problem.

[Hugh Robjohns]

... if you pan the send from the dry track to the reverb (or the recieve in the reverb track) EpicVerb still sounds the same as if that pan was dead center....

Most reverbs work this way. They sum the left and right inputs to mono, and the generate a stereo reverb from that. In most cases this is a perfectly acceptable compromise, especially when using simulations of large spaces.

If you imagine a soloist in a big hall, the character of the reverb really wouldn't change noticeably if they stood in the middle of the stage or moved over to one side, largely because they are never very close to the room boundaries.

However, when emulating small rooms that is arguably less likely to be the case, because the sound source will tend to be much closer to the boundaries when placed hard left/right. Therefore the early reflections from those boundaries will usually be substantially different to the left and right, and thus play a much more significant role in shapimg the stereo image of the reverb. In other words, the source position in the room will alter the generation of early reflections in the left and right rever outputs more obviously.

For this reason, some reverbs have 'true stereo' algorithms, so that the generation of early reflections is controlled and affected by the input source panning, which results in a more natural room sound, especially for small rooms.

This 'true stereo' option typically applies to and appears more in reverbs based on the ray-tracing technique, rather than conventional algorithmic or convolution types.

[Arpangel]

Most reverbs work this way. They sum the left and right inputs to mono, and the generate a stereo reverb from that. In most cases this is a perfectly acceptable compromise, especially when using simulations of large

That’s what I thought.
I’ve had a few hardware Lexicons that behaved like this.

[manwilde]

However, when emulating small rooms that is arguably less likely to be the case, because the sound source will tend to be much closer to the boundaries when placed hard left/right. Therefore the early reflections from those boundaries will usually be substantially different to the left and right, and thus play a much more significant role in shapimg the stereo image of the reverb.

Yes, sorry for not being clear enough, that´s exactly the case when I want a reverb to be "true stereo". For general uses, I guess you just go for a sound, a color, the character that a given reverb adds to the mix. But I´m still learning and I thought to myself "shouldn´t a reverb be always true stereo?", (unless you want a mono one as an insert, for other uses). I see now there is more to it than what I was thinking. Thanks for unearthing for me this subtleties.
By the way, what´s a "ray tracing technique" reverb?

[Hugh Robjohns]

Ray tracing reverbs essentially calculate the paths that sound waves take from a virtual sound source somewhere in a virtual room, to a virtual listening position somewhere else in the same room. It involves creating a 3D model of the room in DSP, taking into account the reflective coefficients of different surfaces, and calculating the delays, amplitudes and frequency responses of initial reflected sounds, along with their reflected directions around the room.