Putting together a Vintage Stereo system

[Bob Bickerton]

This is a conversation without a resolution.

Technically systems were ‘actually’ dreadful compared to modern counterparts. Technically vinyl and cassette tape can’t match modern digital systems.

Emotionally - well that’s a different story all together!

Which is more important is individual choice.

Bob

[mikehende]

Good and accurate summation bob. Also worth mentioning that the pioneers/jegends of that time didn't really have much options regarding music equipment, they were limited only to what was available at that time.

Nowadays, tons of gear and many options of each type of gear is available so it's apples and oranges really.

[uselessoldman]

I was brought up watching bands live, the records were a sad substitution since they never got close to being there in real life watching them. I was also not one for listening to a full album, unless it was Tull Zep Rush, Pink Floyd or a few and very few artists who made an album worth listening to. As for the quality of tape or for that matter vinyl, we knew nothing else, it was all we had and so there was nothing to compare it to. Also who had a stereo radio back in the day? maybe our parents? we certainly never had, it was a small transistor radio under the covers late at night listening to Johnny Peel.

As for quality there is a certain beauty to rawness unclinical and often amateurish music, everyone has to start somewhere and they were easy to play along with, nothing to technical. With digital auto tune melodyne etc everything now has to be just perfect, boring as $%&.

But what matters is the song not necessarily the way or how its played. A good song will always be a good song no matter what the quality. I sit here surrounded by digital toys, but in the end I still like to lift up a guitar switch the amp on and make a racket, or use a keyboard sometimes even both. A certain pleasure in my madness

[mikehende]

As for the quality of tape or for that matter vinyl, we knew nothing else, it was all we had and so there was nothing to compare it to. Also who had a stereo radio back in the day? maybe our parents? we certainly never had, it was a small transistor radio under the covers late at night listening to Johnny Peel.

As for quality there is a certain beauty to rawness unclinical and often amateurish music, everyone has to start somewhere and they were easy to play along with, nothing to technical. With digital auto tune melodyne etc everything now has to be just perfect, boring as $%&.

But what matters is the song not necessarily the way or how its played. A good song will always be a good song no matter what the quality. I sit here surrounded by digital toys, but in the end I still like to lift up a guitar switch the amp on and make a racket, or use a keyboard sometimes even both. A certain pleasure in my madness

All great and accurate points too and seems we are both cut from the same cloth, maybe since we are both musicians from back then is why we see this old vs new in the same light?

In my uncle's band we did not have a mixing board or any signal processing equipment. Only a 3 piece drum set, lead and bass guitars, one mic, keyboard and Fender Amps so what you heard was only raw sound. Finance was a major issue and also getting transportation to gigs.

I still prefer live to recorded music as usually the live version's music will be different aside from the obvious.

[James Perrett]

I'm the same age as some of the main contributors to this thread but I know that my hearing has very obviously degraded from my younger days. Just this morning I realised that I could no longer hear the 12.5kHz test tone on the tape that I was transferring.

I'd also like to put in a good word for vintage audio gear. Not all of it is like the stuff that Mike seems to be collecting. To the uninformed those Fisher speakers might look a bit like Yamaha NS1000's with their three drivers stacked vertically and the white coned woofers. Now NS1000's are still very highly thought of today because they used innovative beryllium drivers and were properly designed. The Fishers probably used 3 random drivers that looked vaguely right.

Earlier this morning Hugh and Mike Stranks were extolling the virtues of the Garrard 301 which was designed in the 1950's.

Real audio pioneers used quality gear which sounded much better than much of the home audio gear around today.

[mikehende]

As mentioned the Fisher speakers I have right now is not what I am after and looking for, they are from 1984 in any case. Far as memory serves I had 15" 3-way from either Pioneer, Fisher, Kenwood or Technics brands so I am trying to track down which were ones I had between 78-82 time period and mainly for nostalgic reasons.

I was never and still not an "Audiophile" since I prefer raw sound. Yes James, there are quality vintage gear but for some it may not qualify as quality sound especially if compared to what's available today with digital or what I term to be "artificial" sound..

[AlecSp]

It's interesting to see how far we'd pursue "authentic" with our live music.

Pink Floyd and The Beatles are among my passions, though I never saw either live.

Nick Mason's Saucerful of Secrets - Nick & an assortment of artists playing early Floyd music - at their launch night a few years ago at Dingwalls through a contemporary PA was phenomenal, and felt like it delivered the best representation of Floyd's legendary UFO gigs from another age.

But, if the Beatles were still around and playing at Shea Stadium, would anyone these days be content with seeing them using the same PA they used at the time. Fully authentic, maybe, but really a bit crap.

[mikehende]

But, if the Beatles were still around and playing at Shea Stadium, would anyone these days be content with seeing them using the same PA they used at the time. Fully authentic, maybe, but really a bit crap.

Alright lol. I'll give you that one, it's a good point.

[uselessoldman]

Strange but if I had the choice between watching live, The Beatles or Oasis, I would choose the latter. As much as I admire what they did I just could never be a fan and all those screaming girls? no thanks, my poor old ears.

Ah yes those Yamaha NS1000s, if I didn't already have a room full of various spurious speakers I would very much still like a pair of them. I did actually look at a pair and nearly bought them before I bought the Adams, for some reason, I guess after my 01x experience, Yamaha was still and still is a sore point with me.

What is different today is Bands now use a PA system over a long line of 4x12 cabs. Having seen AC/DC Motorhead etc they never needed a PA for those Cinema gigs, what they used was more than loud enough. Yes festivals were different, but I don't remember many if any sounded specifically bad? But then festivals were ok but I preferred smaller gigs, less mud.

[AlecSp]

What is different today is Bands now use a PA system over a long line of 4x12 cabs.

But they're not actually *using* any/many of those cabs.

[Drew Stephenson]

[Martin Walker]

I never realised that went on!

(how gullible am I? Answers on a postcard please to the usual address)

Martin

[RichardT]

Wow - really? I’m shocked, like Martin!

[Mike Stranks]

Oh yes; I've seen it m'self at a festival where a well-known and popular 'bank of Marshalls' band were appearing... I was stewarding backstage.

[MarkPAman]

I'm sure I've mentioned here before about the b*******g I once got for picking up 2 cabs at once during a changeover. Gave the game away somewhat

[AlecSp]

I never realised that went on!

The fake cab arms war for looks has been a thing for decades.

These days, it's much more about using isocabs to keep stage volumes low, and get instantly reproducable guitar sound. Leave guitar cabs on stage for cosmetics if you must.

Here's an example: https://youtu.be/Be0lN-xF62o

[BigRedX]

I use a sneaky low-budget version of that myself.

A few years ago I got rid of my massive (in all senses of the word) EBS/Tech Soundsystems bass rig and replaced it with a Helix Floor and an RCF 745 powered speaker (which incidentally cost new about half what I paid for the previous rig which was mostly bought secondhand).

A lot of the gigs my bands do are supporting 80s acts most of whom are still using conventional amplification systems (although Toyah's band were a notable exception). I simply set up in front of the headliner's Ampeg fridge. The RCF goes under the stand which holds the computer and other devices that provide our synth backing, usually firing sideways across the stage so that the rest of the band can hear me better, and the PA gets a feed direct from the Helix. As far as the audience are concerned I'm a typical bass player using a typical bass rig.

The other advantage is that my current bass rig occupies about a quarter of the space in the van that old one did, and we don't have to shift a load of heavy old boxes about at every gig.

[AlecSp]

The other advantage is that my current bass rig occupies about a quarter of the space in the van that old one did, and we don't have to shift a load of heavy old boxes about at every gig.

For me, space and weight are everything - it's amazing what you can fit in a car these days.

[Luke W]

I'm sure I've mentioned here before about the b*******g I once got for picking up 2 cabs at once during a changeover. Gave the game away somewhat

That's cracked me up

[Tim Gillett]

I never realised that went on!

The fake cab arms war for looks has been a thing for decades.

These days, it's much more about using isocabs to keep stage volumes low, and get instantly reproducable guitar sound. Leave guitar cabs on stage for cosmetics if you must.

Here's an example: https://youtu.be/Be0lN-xF62o

Isocabs. Interesting. Is this normal practice at large gigs nowadays? Many studio recordings have DI ed the bass for many years. For many years I've DI ed my bass at live gigs. What is it about the sound that you get from running the bass guitar to a speaker and mic, and then to the FOH or monitor inputs? What do you gain and what do you lose?

[Wonks]

With the top end modellers - Line 6 Helix and Kempers and their ilk - now being such good sounding devices, there's a big shift away from having any guitar amps on stage (even with iso cabs), with everything direct to the PA and relying totally on the monitoring system for stage sound. Very few bands go the loud amps on stage route any more.

There are times when you need volume on stage, especially if feedback is a part of your sound, but if not, then quiet amps or modelling gets you a better FOH sound all the time.

[Tim Gillett]

Thanks Wonks, interesting. I suspect for some guitarists there remains the belief that for an electric guitar to sound 'authentic' it must first pass through a dedicated loudspeaker stage, and that at best even the modellers are only attempting to replicate this sound. Enter the Isocab?

[AlecSp]

Isocabs. Interesting. Is this normal practice at large gigs nowadays?

Extremely, especially in rock circles. Along with, as Wonks points out, modelling systems like Kemper/Helix which are increasingly common all the way down to smaller, even pub, bands.

What is it about the sound that you get from running the bass guitar to a speaker and mic, and then to the FOH or monitor inputs? What do you gain and what do you lose?

With bass, again especially with rock, you gain the amp distortion, along with the cab distortion/compression. It's the same reason that many live acts would usually have a DI and mic feed or bass, to mix to taste. While you gain sound quality/options, you have more kit to hump & occupy more floor space - not a problem for a large act, but much more so for a smaller act.

O course, these days, a well programmed modelling amp can be so good that there's no need for even isocab speakers. Then again, if you're a big rock act, you can add micd cabs even if it's no more than an affectation. I think Muse typically have guitar just through Kemper with no speakers other than when feedback is required, at which point the monitor engineer turns up the send to the appropriate on-stage cab.

Like most of us, I'm sure, I've seen an evolution with the acts I engineer (in a 350 cap venue). 10 years ago, pretty much all of them were a traditional setup, and happy with a 4 way stage monitor setup Increasingly now, there's a move to using in-ears and using modelled/DI'd guitar/bass. Makes me happy as an engineer - far less stage bleed, no "ripping your face off" guitar, musicians much happier with their monitoring, and a far better FOH sound.

[mikehende]

Hey guys. after frantically searching the net for a while now, I have finally tracked down what I think might be the model Series of the speakers I had back in the early 80s, please see the attached pics. This is the 10" version from 1982, I had the 15" and would like to get them back.

Can you guys help me track down the 15" version's model number please?

https://i.postimg.cc/qv14Q5Qd/pioneer-2.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/hjdnDPnS/pioneer-4.jpg