Mixdown Sounds Awful! Cubase Artist 9.5 - HELP ME PLEASE!

[Hippie162]

Hi All, Newbie here! Pls bear with me.

So I haven’t used a DAW in 15 years since I was at Uni, back then I used Logic Pro but had used Cubase prior to that so am familiar with the ancient version (i think it was 5).

I have spent the past 4 weeks creating a song, agonised over getting the vocals layered and the mix perfect, then I mixed it down and BOOM! It sounds TERRIBLE when played through Media player, I tunes etc.

First the Problem: The mix sounds great in Cubase, but when I open the exported file in a player it is very very loud, almost pop your ear drums loud, and the volume is dipping as if a compressor / limitor is trying to ground the levels… also the volume is fading down and up as if there is automation (but there isn’t).

My set up FYI: So I am using Cubase Artist 9.5, software only no external hardware. I have the maximum 68 audio tracks in the project, which are routed through to 6 separate group channels (drums, strings etc.) which then route through to my Stereo out. The files within the project have already been mixed down separately from a previous project that was very plug in heavy to render midi and amalgamate parts, and then imported back into Cubase in a fresh project for mixing in this current session. I have added a couple of plug ins to individual tracks before routing to the group channels such as Reafir to subtract noise, some compression and a bit of reverb. I have added a compressor on the vocal group track too so there is a little bit of compression, lots of times (as the original files mixed down from a prev session were also compressed).

In this final mix session there is no clips, and the stereo our bus is showing levels at no more than -15db (as I am leaving headroom for mastering). I am mixing down at 24 bit 44 hz, WAVE, and have tested it on Mono Stereo and L/R with same result.

What I have tried:

Turning the Stereo our Pan law to -6db NO EFFECT
I have tested mixing down with the Stereo out fader right down so I can just hear it in Cubase - still the mixdown is ear popping loud?
I have muted all my input channels, checked and turned off all automation (there was none) - NO EFFECT
I have mixed down bypassing all plug ins: NO EFFECT
I have tested sperate tracks such as lead vocal only, drum only etc. - The mixdown is still far far too loud.
Adding a limitor to Stereo out - NO EFFECT
I have tried Itunes, Media player and Groove sound to play back with same results.
I have imported the mixdown back into Cubase - SOUNDS GREAT!
So… Has anyone got any ideas? Another point to add is that my laptop has Beats Audio software on it… I have read elsewhere that this can effect mixdown would that be possible? I am thinking of bypassing the audio driver for this software next.

Could there be a problem with the soundcard? Bleeding the output into the input?

Could my mix somehow be doubling or trebling the output on mixdown? Have I messed up by using mixed down files into a new project somewhow? All the audio waves and levels look perfect in Cubase?

Any suggestions are welcome as I am pulling my hair out (and there is lots of it).

TIA.

[manwilde]

Based on what you say it seems the problem might be related to playback software outside the DAW. I´d bypass the Beats Audio first (don´t know what that is, some kind of "enhancer"?).

What happens if you play a commercial release through your media players?. Also, do you have any plugin inserted as a monitoring-only effect in Cubase?

[The Elf]

Welcome!

I think the first thing we need is an audio example to begin to make any suggestions.

There are many, many variables to this, and it sounds like you are throwing all kinds of ideas at this to see what sticks. We need a clean start!

Begin with an absolutely *clean* Project. Make sure *all* faders are set to unity - including the master fader - and do not move the master fader from unity! (ever!).

If you are importing mixed material it will probably be way too loud. Use Cubase's gain to trim them all down to -10dBFS peaks.

Do not use any plug-ins of any kind - at this stage you don't need them. Ditch *all* audio 'enhancement' (ugh! ) features from the audio chain!

Now make some exports (File=>Export=>Audio Mixdown...) and see how they sound.

Although importing and exporting audio within Cubase isn't affected by the hardware you are using, you could give yourself an easier life by getting even a basic external audio interface. The on-board audio hardware on any computer is pretty dire - and although it's not necessarily the main culprit here, it won't be helping.

[Hippie162]

Hi thanks for response...

I would call myself a lamen compared to all of you, how do I know if plug ins are routed as monitor only?

Beats came with the laptop, it's "beats by Dre" and has Audio enhancement and EQ. I have read that it changed audio settings when disabled to make sounds superficially "tinny" when it is not in use as a naughty way to keep custom... that's why I was thinking of bypassing it's driver.

Could my gain staging be causing an issue? the levels look fine on individual tracks but could I be overloading them through plug in's without seeing this effect in the mixer?

TIA!

[Hippie162]

Welcome!

I think the first thing we need is an audio example to begin to make any suggestions.

There are many, many variables to this, and it sounds like you are throwing all kinds of ideas at this to see what sticks. We need a clean start!

Begin with an absolutely *clean* Project. Make sure *all* faders are set to unity - including the master fader - and do not move the master fader from unity! (ever!).

If you are importing mixed material it will probably be way too loud. Use Cubase's gain to trim them all down to -10dBFS peaks.

Do not use any plug-ins of any kind - at this stage you don't need them. Ditch *all* audio 'enhancement' (lol!) features from the audio chain!

Now make some exports and see how they sound.

Although importing and exporting audio within Cubase isn't affected by the hardware you are using, you could give yourself an easier life by getting even a basic external audio interface. The on-board audio hardware on any computer is pretty dire - and although it's not necessarily the main culprit here, it won't be helping.

Hi!

I will certainly try that. Would I be starting a fresh project and importing the mixdown from the Stereo out of this mix or seperate tracks? This could be where I went wrong as I originally did this (for each seperate track) but did not clip the gain at all.

I can add an audio clip if you are brave enough! It will blow speakers it is so loud. I am not sure how to add audio to the thread?

I hope I can sort it as I was so excited to get the mix finished!

[The Elf]

Beats came with the laptop, it's "beats by Dre" and has Audio enhancement and EQ.

Spurn it as you would spurn a rabid dog. Switch it off and leave it off.

And as I said, remove *all* plug-ins, no matter what and no matter where they are. You need to start clean. Without that you are trying to roller skate in a hammock on a moving ship... in sunglasses.

[Hippie162]

Lol.. A rabid dog is indeed what I have heard it is!!

OK so I will try all of this as I have an inckling you are onto something regarding the gain on each track waveform after importing the previously mixed down versions..

How come an issue like this isn't made apparent while using the DAW though?

[The Elf]

How come an issue like this isn't made apparent while using the DAW though?

I'm sure it will be - but maybe you haven't as yet learned to interpret what it is telling you.

Try some clean audio - not anything 'mixed', no matter where it came from; maybe a vocal and piano, for instance. I know Mike Senior has some multi-tracks you can import as a starting point.

The point here is to start with the simplest example you can - not something that is already questionable.

Try here: https://www.cambridge-mt.com/ms/mtk-newbies/.

[manwilde]

Here´s the link:

https://cambridge-mt.com/ms/mtk/

[The Elf]

Here´s the link:
https://cambridge-mt.com/ms/mtk/

Thanks, mate!

[manwilde]

Here´s the link:
https://cambridge-mt.com/ms/mtk/

Thanks, mate!

That was easy, it´s my bookmark #2 (SOS is #1)

[Hugh Robjohns]

I can add an audio clip if you are brave enough! It will blow speakers it is so loud. I am not sure how to add audio to the thread?

The SOS forum can't host audio files.

Instead, you need to upload it to a service like SoundCloud, and then post a link to that location back here.

I'd suggest starting with your original mix file which sounds good in Cubase. Let's see if the file itself is okay (implying a problem with your other replay software/soundcard), or whether the export itself is causing problems.

[Hippie162]

Ah Ok super.

I will do this this evening then and post the link to see what you guys think. I will make sure to put a warning about the sheer volume I am getting!

In the meantime I will try the suggestions and sort my gain staging etc...

I get the best way to learn is from mistakes!

[Wonks]

Note that your group tracks will also need to have their input gains adjusted so that the signal comes in at a reasonable level. If you are sending it ten signals at -10dBFS, then the mixed resulting incoming signal will be at 0dBFS.

And likewise for multiple group basses feeding the master bus, so the master bus input gain can also be adjusted. Cubase makes this easy by having such a function on each channel (though you have to enable its display to adjust it). In many other DAWs, you need to add a gain control module as the first insert on each channel to do so.

The internal structure of the DAW will happily cope with signals that are at higher levels, but you'll get issues with a) plug-ins that mimic analogue devices and start to clip or distort at a similar input level to the hardware they mimic and b) anything over 0dBFS will be truncated to 0dBFS when exporting the mix (and sound bad).

[Mike Shand]

I have tested mixing down with the Stereo out fader right down so I can just hear it in Cubase - still the mixdown is ear popping loud?

This seems key. It looks like the mix down is output from something other than the main stereo bus. Perhaps something at a very high level?

[Hippie162]

Note that your group tracks will also need to have their input gains adjusted so that the signal comes in at a reasonable level. If you are sending it ten signals at -10dBFS, then the mixed resulting incoming signal will be at 0dBFS.

And likewise for multiple group basses feeding the master bus, so the master bus input gain can also be adjusted. Cubase makes this easy by having such a function on each channel (though you have to enable its display to adjust it). In many other DAWs, you need to add a gain control module as the first insert on each channel to do so.

The internal structure of the DAW will happily cope with signals that are at higher levels, but you'll get issues with a) plug-ins that mimic analogue devices and start to clip or distort at a similar input level to the hardware they mimic and b) anything over 0dBFS will be truncated to 0dBFS when exporting the mix (and sound bad).

This is super useful information, thank you! I was about to just adjust the clip gain on each channel and hadn't taken any of that into account. I am starting to suspect that what has happened is as you all say the gain of an already too loud event is being enhanced at several stages along the way and then going into plug ins adding yet more gain

If this is the problem and can be sorted I will do a dance. I have been sitting there thinking I have exhausted everything in my knowledge base and would have to pay out for an engineer to mix it for me!

[Hippie162]

I have tested mixing down with the Stereo out fader right down so I can just hear it in Cubase - still the mixdown is ear popping loud?

This seems key. It looks like the mix down is output from something other than the main stereo bus. Perhaps something at a very high level?

On export mixdown I am selecting the Stereo Out channel to export audio from. Is there anywhere else I need to check that might affect the routing?

[The Elf]

I have tested mixing down with the Stereo out fader right down so I can just hear it in Cubase - still the mixdown is ear popping loud?

This seems key. It looks like the mix down is output from something other than the main stereo bus. Perhaps something at a very high level?

True, and is why I say to get that master fader at unity and leave it there. Do not turn it down. This should expose what it truly going on.

I know others disagree with me, but in a 'normal' mix, assuming you stick to the -10dBFS peak guide, then you should VERY rarely need to touch that master fader - and I would say to make that never - in other words, sort out the sources rather than touch that fader.

[Hippie162]

Good Advice Elf thank you I have been messing about with the master fader all the way along

[The Elf]

Good Advice Elf thank you I have been messing about with the master fader all the way along

When I'm DAW teaching that is my 'Rule #1': Thou shalt not touch the master fader!

[worshiptuned]

Based on what you say it seems the problem might be related to playback software outside the DAW. I´d bypass the Beats Audio first (don´t know what that is, some kind of "enhancer"?).

What happens if you play a commercial release through your media players?.

I think this is the key, did you try it, Hippie 162?

Look at the main volume gain of your PC, (you say you don't use any external hardware) I mean in the audio settings of the PC, not Cubase, see the levels of the speakers and...
See if when you open Cubase and when you mixdown, and when you playback the exported files the gain levels in the audio settings are the same. Maybe the software Beats Audio you quoted above changes some settings and you said that something is changed when the software is disabled. When you use Cubase it usually overrides the settings of other audio softwares because Cubase takes exclusive control of the audio of your system with the selected Asio driver and then your third party softwareBeats Audio is likely disabled and when you shut Cubase is enabled again and can change your audio settings.

To override this behavior of Cubase you can also try in the settings of windows, click sound, device properties, un-check the box “Allow applications to take exclusive control of this device".

[merlyn]

If you are sending it ten signals at -10dBFS, then the mixed resulting incoming signal will be at 0dBFS.

It wouldn't take as many as ten. Adding four similar signals (for our purposes rhythmically similar) would give a 12dB rise. Correlated signals add at 6dB. Uncorrelated signals add at 3dB.

Multiplying by 10 is a 20dB rise.

[Hippie162]

Based on what you say it seems the problem might be related to playback software outside the DAW. I´d bypass the Beats Audio first (don´t know what that is, some kind of "enhancer"?).

What happens if you play a commercial release through your media players?.

I think this is the key, did you try it, Hippie 162?

Look at the main volume gain of your PC, (you say you don't use any external hardware) I mean in the audio settings of the PC, not Cubase, see the levels of the speakers and...
See if when you open Cubase and when you mixdown, and when you playback the exported files the gain levels in the audio settings are the same. Maybe the software Beats Audio you quoted above changes some settings and you said that something is changed when the software is disabled. When you use Cubase it usually overrides the settings of other audio softwares because Cubase takes exclusive control of the audio of your system with the selected Asio driver and then your third party softwareBeats Audio is likely disabled and when you shut Cubase is enabled again and can change your audio settings.

To override this behavior of Cubase you can also try in the settings of windows, click sound, device properties, un-check the box “Allow applications to take exclusive control of this device".

Morning!,

So I concentrated on what the others were saying about gain staging last night, I started with a fresh project and imported some of the original audio files.. set the pre gains of all channels and busses to -10db to start off with, no plug ins whatsoever.... I then did a test mixdown , it started really quiet, then faded to a louder volume, stayed consistent for a few seconds, then fluctuated volume again

At least it wasn't ear popping loud this time though although it was still definately much louder in the mixdown than it was in Cubase.. So I am still scratching my head.

I did actually check the audio PC levels, they were set to 100% - too much??

I completely uninstalled Beats audio as I couldn't figure out how to find the driver itself I am hoping that has done the trick although no different outcome as yet.

One other point to add.. while I was doing my initial mix, I would playback while mixing, then I noticed that my PC had been recording audio layered over my tracks from my PC mic! There was the odd bit off conversation on the track.. really odd as I had not pressed record?? I deleted the events where this happened and have disabled the PC mic and muted all input busses.

I have actually bought my laptop into work today as it id doing my head in so much. So on my break I will put the soundcloud link to last nights test mixdown for you all.

ONE other question (sorry): WhenI initially mixed down my audio tracks individually from my first session, I did NO gain staging at all.. I am pretty sure they would have been peaking as that session was loud and some faders were turned up even due to my novice rusty brain thinking it was blending the mix.... SO.. do you guys think this could have caused the issues? Should I go back into that original session and completely start over by doing a mixdown on each track again BUT gain stage them first, OR can gain staging the tracks in this new session sort the issue?

Sorry for all the questions, this has all moved on from how I worked before and I consider myself a total newbie nowadays.

TIA

[Hippie162]

Me again..

I couldn't wait on it here's the rough mixdown minus the lead vocals that did last night.

https://soundcloud.com/user-410433233-548354857/test2

So I played it back through my work PC and it sounds fine other than being extremely low volume (guessing due to excessive gain cutback I did last night) ... On my home laptop this sounded so much louder.

How is this sounding on your end? Would I just need to do a proper gain stage, mixdown again and it should be ok?

Wow I don't know what the issue is with my laptop but it's a major one going forward if it persists