Need to upgrade my headphone monitor mix! Please help.

[DC-Choppah]

Recently I was tracking a wonderful drummer. He asked for more juice in the headphone. Then I maxed out the headphone amp and he asked for more. He wore his phones with one ear uncovered. And I noticed he played the best that way.

But that means I need to get his left ear up to the level of the kit.

I track up to 4 people at once, so I am looking for a headphone amp that will take 4 different cue mixes and send to 4 players, with LOTS of juice.

But I think I also need to squash that monitor mix?!? So room to include parallel compression to bring the quiet stuff up seems to be in order. I am thinking that I need an analog mixer just for my monitor mix. Something that can upward compress the monitor.

Man, I think monitoring is key for my music. Jazz musicians play better when they hear better!!

Anyone with me here?!?

[Kwackman]

But that means I need to get his left ear up to the level of the kit.

I don't suppose an earplug in his right (unprotected) ear would go down well? In a few years he might even thank you!

Jazz musicians play better when they hear better!!

That sentence is still true without the word "Jazz".

[shufflebeat]

In a few years he might even thank you!

+1

Consider an ambient omni or single-point stereo and give him control of it's level in his mix.

I'm trying a little cheap Sony m/s stereo recording mic for this at the minute. Might work, might not.

[James Perrett]

Jazz drummers need to be able to hear the cymbals extremely well because much of their style revolves around how they hit the ride cymbal. It is really difficult to reproduce the sound electronically in the same way as the drummer hears things acoustically so the one ear off technique is needed.

[Wonks]

What ohmage headphones was the drummer using? If they are high ohmage (200+), then maybe try some much lower ohmage headphones first before thinking about changing the headphone amp?

I'd be a bit wary about compressing a performer's own performance playback when they are playing, as the reduced dynamics are likely to affect the way they play and they'll try to compensate.

[Hugh Robjohns]

You're opening a can of worms here...

First, different headphone amp designs deliver their max power at different headphone load mpedances, so it's worth checking the manufacturers' specs (if they are provided at all). Generally, lower impedance phones will be louder than high-z models, but you may find the optimum power rating is with 40 Ohms, 70 Ohms or 100 Ohms or something.

There are, of course, some very powerful headphone amps around. I just reviewed the DACS Headlite 3+ which, as standard, has one high power and three standard power headphone amps, but it can be ordered with 2, 3, or 4 high power amps if required. The standard amps deliver 0.5W per channel while the high power amp delivers a whopping 1.5 watts per channel. (The high power amp is actually intended for driving multiple parallel phones, for orchestral section players, etc)

But here's the wormy bit... If you provide high level headphone feeds to your band mates you potentially risk getting sued when the musician goes deaf and decides it was all your fault because of the stupidly powerful headphone feed you gave him without care for his well being...

I've see it happen more than once... So my advice would be to ask the drummer to bring his own high power headphone amp/phones if he thinks yours isn't loud enough, and you just provide a suitable line level signal for it. That way it's entirely his responsibility rather than your liability.

[manwilde]

At the project studio we use a Mackie HM-400 headphone amplifier (https://mackie.com/products/hm-series-headphone-amplifiers) along with assorted headphones for loud rock recordings and it gives us plenty of juice, way more than needed. We use no compression or limiting.
Best results for drummers are often achieved with the Extreme Isolation EX-29 headphones (https://www.extremeheadphones.com/product-page/ex29-plus). Oh, and they sound at least as good as any other tracking headphones that I´ve tried. Actually, better than most.

[Wonks]

Would it be worth trying some open-backed headphones for the drummer, so they can get a lot of the sound from the room, with just some reinforcement from the cans? Hopefully the overheads and other mics will be far enough away so that any spill from them is insignificant.

[James Perrett]

Would it be worth trying some open-backed headphones for the drummer, so they can get a lot of the sound from the room, with just some reinforcement from the cans? Hopefully the overheads and other mics will be far enough away so that any spill from them is insignificant.

Open backed headphones still muffle the sound too much for my tastes - or at least the Sennheisers that we had in the studio did. However, I'm probably quite fussy about this and other drummers would be fine.

I've always found the humble Behringer HA400 to give plenty of volume for high impedance headphones although it doesn't have the routing needed here.

[Martin Walker]

So my advice would be to ask the drummer to bring his own high power headphone amp/phones if he thinks yours isn't loud enough, and you just provide a suitable line level signal for it. That way it's entirely his responsibility rather than your liability.

Wow - hadn't thought of that scenario, but it makes perfect sense.

Even the occasional orchestral player has sued for loss of hearing due to their placement in the orchestra close in front of the brass or percussion sections.

Martin

[DC-Choppah]

At the project studio we use a Mackie HM-400 headphone amplifier (https://mackie.com/products/hm-series-headphone-amplifiers) along with assorted headphones for loud rock recordings and it gives us plenty of juice, way more than needed. We use no compression or limiting.
Best results for drummers are often achieved with the Extreme Isolation EX-29 headphones (https://www.extremeheadphones.com/product-page/ex29-plus). Oh, and they sound at least as good as any other tracking headphones that I´ve tried. Actually, better than most.

Yes, we do have those extreme isolation headphones for the drummer to track with.
I use these: https://www.extremeheadphones.com/produ ... /ex25-plus

But once the drummer has the right ear headphone off, I now need to bring his left ear level way up to the level of the real kit in the room! The whole isolation thing is defeated. But he plays much better this way. He does very detailed ride work.

The mic that picks up his ride is above his head.

[DC-Choppah]

In a few years he might even thank you!

+1

Consider an ambient omni or single-point stereo and give him control of it's level in his mix.

I'm trying a little cheap Sony m/s stereo recording mic for this at the minute. Might work, might not.

OK, I think I am following. Set up a stereo mic just for capturing his kit and give him control of that level in his monitor mix.

Maybe if I do this he can get used to playing with both headphones on, which will allow me to keep the headphones at a safe level.

[manwilde]

Don´t know if you´re already doing it, but since he is listening to just one earcup, you might get more volume in there by making the cue mix to be mono and panning it all to that side...

[DC-Choppah]

You're opening a can of worms here...

First, different headphone amp designs deliver their max power at different headphone load mpedances, so it's worth checking the manufacturers' specs (if they are provided at all). Generally, lower impedance phones will be louder than high-z models, but you may find the optimum power rating is with 40 Ohms, 70 Ohms or 100 Ohms or something.

There are, of course, some very powerful headphone amps around. I just reviewed the DACS Headlite 3+ which, as standard, has one high power and three standard power headphone amps, but it can be ordered with 2, 3, or 4 high power amps if required. The standard amps deliver 0.5W per channel while the high power amp delivers a whopping 1.5 watts per channel. (The high power amp is actually intended for driving multiple parallel phones, for orchestral section players, etc)

But here's the wormy bit... If you provide high level headphone feeds to your band mates you potentially risk getting sued when the musician goes deaf and decides it was all your fault because of the stupidly powerful headphone feed you gave him without care for his well being...

I've see it happen more than once... So my advice would be to ask the drummer to bring his own high power headphone amp/phones if he thinks yours isn't loud enough, and you just provide a suitable line level signal for it. That way it's entirely his responsibility rather than your liability.

Thank you kindly Hugh.

My drum tracking headphones say they are 32 Ohms. https://www.extremeheadphones.com/produ ... /ex25-plus

I don't think the problem is the headphones. Perhaps he has done so much tracking this way that he has reduced hearing?!? Can of worms indeed.

[manwilde]

We are quite fond of the "crutch mic" tecnique at the studio, and for the softer hitters we´ve had good cue mixes sending the drummer just that one mic (usually an EV 635a).

[DC-Choppah]

Don´t know if you´re already doing it, but since he is listening to just one earcup, you might get more volume in there by making the cue mix to be mono and panning it all to that side...

Good one. No I had not done that.

I had everything panned in the middle for the mono mics and fully wide for the stereo pair above his head.

I was really thinking I needed to parallel compress his monitor mix so he could hear his fine details lifted up. But I don't see anyone else doing that.

My solution to all this really was those high isolation phones. You can keep the levels reasonable that way.

But giving him control of his own level in that mix may be the key missing step to getting him comfortable with that.

[James Perrett]

To a drummer, cymbals through headphones sound nothing like real cymbals. I wouldn't want to play jazz that relied on cymbal work with headphones on at all.

Rock is a different matter - you don't need the same level of control with most rock music.

[Hugh Robjohns]

Wow - hadn't thought of that scenario, but it makes perfect sense

Yes, sadly. There have been several cases with orchestra members suing, and winning, but I also know of cases in the TV world and the music studio world. The ones I know of we're all settled out of court, but in an increasingly litigious society I certainly wouldn't want to leave myself open to litigation. If you're providing the gear you have an automatic duty of care, and while a litigant might have a hard time proving you caused their hearing damage, equally you'd have a very hard time arguing you didn't -- unless you can prove you controlled monitoring levels to be within the proscribed noise at work limits. Providing a high powered headphone amp is an obvious shot in the foot!

[DC-Choppah]

We are quite fond of the "crutch mic" tecnique at the studio, and for the softer hitters we´ve had good cue mixes sending the drummer just that one mic (usually an EV 635a).

I do have an omni EV mic like that but its called a PL9. I need to put it through an extra preamp with lots of gain to make it pickup things more than a few feet away like the drum kit.

I can try that for him. Perhaps the omi mic from his position will give him a more natural sound and I can get him to try to wear the phones on both ears. And give him control of that mic level in his monitor mix and control of the cue mix at the same time so he can find his own balance.

[DC-Choppah]

To a drummer, cymbals through headphones sound nothing like real cymbals. I wouldn't want to play jazz that relied on cymbal work with headphones on at all.

Rock is a different matter - you don't need the same level of control with most rock music.

OK.

But for the sound coming into your left ear, how about we give you independent control of the cue mix, and the level of the omni crotch mic to hear your drums?

Or do you want the left ear to JUST be the cue mix since you can hear your whole set in your right ear?!

[DC-Choppah]

I'd be a bit wary about compressing a performer's own performance playback when they are playing, as the reduced dynamics are likely to affect the way they play and they'll try to compensate.

This is a very dynamic player with very strong hits mixed with soft details. Like recording Jack DeJohnette. I would not want to affect his playing. Just want him to hear the cue mix over his drums.

[James Perrett]

Or do you want the left ear to JUST be the cue mix since you can hear your whole set in your right ear?!

Personally I'd go for this option as I'd assume that I can hear the kit through the air. My personal ideal would be to hear the bassist clearly with possibly a simplified mix with only the essential elements in there.

[DC-Choppah]

Or do you want the left ear to JUST be the cue mix since you can hear your whole set in your right ear?!

Personally I'd go for this option as I'd assume that I can hear the kit through the air. My personal ideal would be to hear the bassist clearly with possibly a simplified mix with only the essential elements in there.

This is great. Much appreciated.

So no need to add MORE drums into his ears.

I am recording experienced musicians who have mostly experienced live playing, and getting the music to sound right in a live setting.

The drummers always love it when we have a grand piano, and I can point the piano lid directly at the drummer! And the bass is next to the drummer too. If the drummer hears the piano and bass, we can get things tight.

So a simplified mix would be bass and piano, and a percussion groove (tambourine, shaker, etc in place of a click track) and melodic elements too so he can follow the form of the tune.

Make this all mono and send to his left ear only. Nothing in the right ear - or maybe a musical earplug!??

[DC-Choppah]

But that means I need to get his left ear up to the level of the kit.

I don't suppose an earplug in his right (unprotected) ear would go down well? In a few years he might even thank you!

The last article on SoS I can find regarding 'musical earplugs' is over 15 years ago here: https://www.soundonsound.com/sound-advi ... -wear-gigs

I would love to get an update on this important topic. Seems like a lot of new musical earplugs are around now like these: https://www.amazon.com/Reverbs-High-Fid ... -search-20

Do these preserve the ride cymbal?!? Do they actually reduce the levels down to safe levels for a drummer?

Would be great to get some unbiased objective info on these new musical earplugs, especially for tracking drummers!