Chords progression of one of my songs - phrygian mode?

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Re: Chords progression of one of my songs - phrygian mode?

Post by GilesAnt »

As Richard says, a piece can still be in a given key, even if some of the notes and chords seem to lie outside that key. The rhythmic and melodic context can also be important though.
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Re: Chords progression of one of my songs - phrygian mode?

Post by Ben Asaro »

As stated above, it’s what feels like ‘home’. As your progression doesn’t really have a traditional cadence, there’s not much tension pulling it home.

Phrygian is a natural minor scale with a flat II, and you would accentuate that by getting that b2 on strong beats.

Your progression goes i - IV - iii, so it’s in the i chord’s key of G#m. In this case, E and A are borrowed chords.
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Re: Chords progression of one of my songs - phrygian mode?

Post by rshellard »

Hey Frank,

Nice tune!

To me, it sounds solidly in G#m with the A major chord functioning as a Neopolitan chord - typically a major triad built off of the flat 2nd scale degree, you often hear it in minor more often than major and typically in the first inversion (with the third in the bass, in this case C#). You can see more here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neapolitan_chord.

Typically, it precedes the dominant (V chord, so D# major in your case) as it approaches tonic (G#m here), but the omission of the D# major gives it a cool chromatic feel that I'm totally going to steal!
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Re: Chords progression of one of my songs - phrygian mode?

Post by merlyn »

If you were jamming with someone and they asked you "what key?", then you would say "G# minor" to get them in the ballpark. If we think on the A chord as the outside chord, as Wurlitzer suggested above, then this tune is G# aeolian (scale of B major) and G# phrygian (scale of E major) for a bar when the chord is A.

To be "in a minor key" though it would have a D#7 - G#m cadence which uses the harmonic or melodic minor. Without that it's modal and uses modes of major scales.

House of The Rising Sun is in a minor key and has a real minor sound because it uses the natural, harmonic and melodic minors :

Am C (natural) D (melodic) F Am C (natural) E E (harmonic) Am

There's also a well used progression :

Am G F (natural) E (harmonic) Am

If that was

Am G F Em Am

It would be modal.

For a real theory-fest if the A chord in Frank's tune was A7 it would be more like a minor key because A7 is a tritone substitution for D#7. In A7 the third is C# and the seventh is G. In D#7 the seventh is C# and the third is F## (=G). A7 is D#7b5b9 which works in a minor key. A7 brings in a G (F##) note (the major seventh of G#) from the harmonic minor.
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Re: Chords progression of one of my songs - phrygian mode?

Post by Wurlitzer »

RichardT wrote:
OneWorld wrote:
manwilde wrote:Sorry to go off-topic but I´m listening to your "Best orgasms form 2011 to 2018" and enjoying it a lot! :clap::clap:

I'm inclined to agree. It is clear that Ennio Morricone is an influence and at times sounds like the background music to some 60's 'Exotic Art Movie' but hey, nothing wrong with that, it is pleasantly quirky, and most of all quite listenable.

I often struggle with deciding what key a piece of music is in, if for example I am clearly in the key of C Major, but then, for example, a chromatic shift going from

Cmaj->Gmaj->Fmaj->Emin->#Dmaj->Gmaj->Cmaj

have I stayed in C major or have I changed key and added some 'accidentals' ?

You’re still in C major. The D#maj doesn’t act as a tonic.

Not to mention the fact that D# major doesn't exist. :)
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Re: Chords progression of one of my songs - phrygian mode?

Post by Ben Asaro »

Wurlitzer wrote: Not to mention the fact that D# major doesn't exist. :)

Sure it does, it's just much easier to use its enharmonic equivalent of Eb for naming purposes.
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Re: Chords progression of one of my songs - phrygian mode?

Post by Wurlitzer »

Sorry I meant the key doesn't exist.
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Re: Chords progression of one of my songs - phrygian mode?

Post by GilesAnt »

As Ben said - it does. Where there is a note there is a key as well.
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Re: Chords progression of one of my songs - phrygian mode?

Post by merlyn »

It's worth noting that :

(number of sharps to notate a key) + (number of flats to notate a key) = 12

e.g. F# major (6 sharps) = Gb major (6 flats)
B major (5 sharps) = Cb major (7 flats)

So D# major has 9 sharps since Eb has 3 flats.

I've never seen D# major used. Theoretically it exists but it's a bit nutty to use 9 sharps instead of 3 flats. :)
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Re: Chords progression of one of my songs - phrygian mode?

Post by RichardT »

merlyn wrote:It's worth noting that :

(number of sharps to notate a key) + (number of flats to notate a key) = 12

e.g. F# major (6 sharps) = Gb major (6 flats)
B major (5 sharps) = Cb major (7 flats)

So D# major has 9 sharps since Eb has 3 flats.

I've never seen D# major used. Theoretically it exists but it's a bit nutty to use 9 sharps instead of 3 flats. :)

I never knew that! If there are 9 sharps in D#, then two of them must be a double sharp as there are only 7 notes to sharpen. That would be a very intimidating key signature!
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Re: Chords progression of one of my songs - phrygian mode?

Post by merlyn »

Another way to think about it is D major has 2 sharps. D# major then sharpens everything resulting in F## and C##.
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Re: Chords progression of one of my songs - phrygian mode?

Post by Drew Stephenson »

You see stuff like this is why people give up on music theory!

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