New Hydrasynth Models

[Drew Stephenson]

No worries, John. I wasn't targetting you.

This is my bi-monthly external PSUs rant. The regulars here are used to it. Glad to meet someone of the same mind.

And my bi-annual counter; it's not about the cost of the synth or the power supply, it's the cost of the production line.

[The Elf]

It matters not what or where the cost is - it just needs meeting. No excuse.

[Drew Stephenson]

Dare I suggest that perhaps you, and indeed most of us on this forum, are not entirely representative of the entire target market for musical instruments; being as we are, ahem, slightly older and probably slight more well-heeled than the average aspiring musician?

We are very good at extrapolating our own requirements out and spending other people's money here.

[The Elf]

When someone is looking at spending over 1500 quid for a 'Deluxe' synth I don't think we are considering budget gear that needs corners cutting.

Now the Hydrasynth Explorer - there I can more likely accept (much as I hate it) an external PSU for reasons of cost.

[Drew Stephenson]

But what would be the additional cost of making the production line safe at 240v?
And for what percentage of users is this actually an issue? Most pro musical instruments (and I mean that in a genuine pro not a marketing pro) is actually used by amateurs, that's the big market.

But we've done this discussion to death.
Until someone comes up with an actual cost per unit of changing a production line I don't think either of us are likely to change our position.

[Folderol]

It's a case of not changing horses in mid stream.

Running a 240V safe test area is not particularly expensive, changing an existing one is extremely so. Also, with modern electronics all the risk factors are already down.

First you don't run the line at 240V, you run it a sniff over 100V (universal SMPSU in the kit), also you float the supply with leakage detectors and trips included. My personal experience is that you get more failures running at lower voltages than higher ones due to the higher currents, so it's a better test anyway.

It is only the test area that actually requires any of this. It would be ridiculous to have in the assembly areas!

YMMV

[The Elf]

Bottom line - most gear used to have internal PSUs. There is no reason they now can't.

[Martin Walker]

Waited patiently two years for a 5-octave follow up, then a month ago, thinking it wouldn't happen after all, I capitulated and got a new 49 key original... now it decides to turn up with another octave on top of that!

Same here, although when I bought my 49-keyer a few weeks back I managed to get it for a few pounds over £1000 (bargain in my book!), so I'm still well chuffed with my purchase.

I do agree that availability of these new models may be a bit hit and miss, so I'm still chuffed that I bought mine when I did. There, I've convinced myself

Martin

[The Elf]

For that money you've done really well. A four-octave keyboard is great for a lead synth, and it just nicely covers the range of a virtual Mellotron!

[ajay_m]

Why do manufacturers use external PSUs
1. It's a really expensive and time consuming issue getting the various safety and compliance certifications for all the regions they want to sell into 2. Switching PSUs radiate EMI which is tricky to shield and equipment such as the HS which has quite a few analogue ins and outs is obviously vulnerable to this 3. An internal PSU will have to be grounded whereas an external PSU can be double insulated thus removing a potentially challenging route by which interference can be further propagated. Ground currents are a nightmare because of the very low impedances involved and anyone whose grappled with noise from a bus power usb audio interface will have hit this issue. Although analogue PSUs are an option for relatively low currents the weight and heat dissipation issues then become another challenge. So understandably internal PSUs have become much less common.

[The Elf]

I've seen these 'reasons' many times - every time I raise the issue, in fact. All I say is, no matter how complicated and expensive it is... they should do it. Novation managed to do it with the Summit (I hugged the engineer who told me he was responsible for that decision), so how come some companies can and others can't?

We need to stop making their excuses for them.

[Drew Stephenson]

Because it's a non-issue for most customers and therefore it makes more sense as a manufacturer to keep the price down?
Maybe?

[The Elf]

...to keep the cost down?
Maybe?

FTFY

[Drew Stephenson]

...to keep the cost down?
Maybe?

FTFY

[Luke W]

I get the impression that neither or you are ever going to budge on this

External PSUs do really bug me I have to say. Everything else aside I like my neat cabling, and they make that much more of a pain.

[Folderol]

Ummm... an internal PSU doesn't have to be grounded. it is considered 'good practice' to carry an earth through enveloping the high voltage side for added safety, but I don't know of anywhere that requires this. it is immaterial just where the 'double insulated' bit takes place.

Also, having a well designed PSU inside the kit would reduce the possible EMC as you can use the structure itself to provide additional screening, and wouldn't have a long cable acting as an aerial both sides of the PSU.

Compared to the profits made on sales, the cost of certification is peanuts.

There is a fairly small company I know of that makes transport information systems. They not only require CE etc, but the railways have very strict regulations - they don't seem to find meeting this much of a problem.

Finally, there are companies out there that are in the business of getting kit certified. The good ones are well known across the industries and can do all the donkey work for you at a good price.

[resistorman]

The one big advantage of external PSUs is that I've been able to easily take my Hydrasynth, Wavestate and Cobalt 8 to outdoor jams using a small simple battery pack. It's been great since we haven't been able or inclined to meet indoors for well over a year.

[Eddy Deegan]

I have a somewhat different, and non-technical, angle on it.

I'm with The Elf. I want internal supplies. The reason I want them is because I have getting on for 30 synthesizers. I also have half as many other gizmos in the form of hardware sequencers, powered MIDI devices, drum machines and tabletop devices and I use all of them.

One external lump doesn't seem too bad but once you have many, a small number of which don't play well with accompanying devices in adjacent sockets, it becomes an absolute nightmare.

More than half my gear uses IECs but a lot of it, especially newer stuff, doesn't. External supplies take up external space. An accumulation or them of them takes up lots of space. I'm in the middle of a studio relocation project and as a result I've put half or more of my gear in 'temporary storage' in the house. I have a shelf that looks like something out of Aliens, holding a big collection o' 'orrible black lumps 'o plastic. Sure I label them but there's always one that you missed or that the label fell off from and it's a royal pain to track that missing one down.

Further, the flimsy leads on externals are fixed length and often too short. If they're not too short they're too long. If everything used IEC sockets I'd be far better off organisationally. If you have a built-in supply you can use the correct cable length for the requirement. Thicker cables, yes, but far preferable due to no lumps, more sturdiness and a consistent aesthetic right down to the plug.

I want a Hydrasynth positioned a foot or three further from the power sockets than the provided cord is long. I want to snuggle my nice consistently-sized plugs into tight spaces and forget about them.

What I don't want is a haphazard bunch of large, randomly sized ugly plastic blocks with cables ranging from too long to too short. Not to mention all the heat concentrated on the power strip as opposed to distributed between the relatively wider spacing of the synths and devices themselves.

My dislike for external power supplies is directly related to the number of them I have, and right now I absolutely hate them. I'm drowning in them and aroundabout now I've had enough, will be making future buying decisions based on them, and providing (polite) feedback to the vendors as to why.

I don't care about the cost, I don't care about the technicalities. I'm a consumer for whom companies are building these instruments and devices and in my case externals en-masse suck. I've seen youtube videos featuring desktop-device arrangements exhibiting unrealistically tidy cabling where I know full well that just out of shot the power strip looks absolutely ridiculous.

None of this has anything to do with the technicalities or costs of providing power to circuits; it's very much about the consumer practicalities.

Built-in supplies all the way, in my book. External power supplies are simply wrong

[resistorman]

The reason I want them is because I have getting on for 30 synthesizers. I also have half as many other gizmos in the form of hardware sequencers, powered MIDI devices, drum machines and tabletop devices and I use all of them.

Yikes! I have 8 or 9 wall warts spread out through the studio which I thought was excessive...

[N i g e l]

At the price point, my preference for the Hydrasynth would have been an IEC lead.

I would have prefered IEC on my MODX as well, which is at a similar price point to the Hydrasynth. I was a bit surprised that it was an external PSU. The MODX is son of MONTAGE, which is twice the price and has an IEC.

I assume Yamaha are big enough to have a "PSU department" and that design/migration and qualification of an internal PSU would have been trivial.

The one big advantage of external PSUs is that I've been able to easily take my Hydrasynth, Wavestate and Cobalt 8 to outdoor jams using a small simple battery pack....

interesting point

[Zukan]

Who are you lot sleeping with? It seems you buy a synth every other week. I need to change my client list. Maybe working the Yemeni angle wasn't so prudent.

I'm still saving up for a Midisport 4x4.

[N i g e l]

not me sir !

My MODX was funded by selling a legendary 1U FM rack module from the 90s {+ a slight top up} .

Although Ive gained on polyphony, 7" touch screen, sample replay, sequencer, motion control, external i/p processing, USB & computer integration, Ive lost out on being able to menu dive >2000 parameters on a 2 line LCD using buttons normally reserved for a reset function.

[The Elf]

Those of us who attended the 'bring a cake, win a synth' at the last meeting now get a free synth every month for life. I didn't realise you didn't get in on it, Zuke!

[Zukan]

not me sir !

My MODX was funded by selling a legendary 1U FM rack module from the 90s {+ a slight top up} .

Although Ive gained on polyphony, 7" touch screen, sample replay, sequencer, motion control, external i/p processing, USB & computer integration, Ive lost out on being able to menu dive >2000 parameters on a 2 line LCD using buttons normally reserved for a reset function.

FS1R?