Preamp gain question

[musiciandude011]

Hello. So I am planning on getting a cloudlifter to plug into an irig pre hd to iphone for recording my acoustic songs. Right now I have to put the irig pre at almost max to get a clean sound but then it clips very easily on loud songs. Someone said that with the cloudlifter you only need the irig pre to be about halfway which is plenty. I looked it up and cloudlifter is 25db of gain or “clean gain” not sure what that means. And the irig pre is 40db gain (i guess when maxed). So that would mean the irig would have to be almost all the way up to get to 60 right? But everywhere it says sm7b needs 60db clean gain to run at its best. So my question is how come everyone says that setup is perfectly fine. Shouldn’t i be getting a rane ms1 or something so I can get to 60 without having to go up much on the irig? Also was wondering is focusrite the same thing as this irig or is it better somehow. Thanks A TON whoever can answer these questions.

[Stig Ø]

Hello. So I am planning on getting a cloudlifter to plug into an irig pre hd to iphone for recording my acoustic songs. Right now I have to put the irig pre at almost max to get a clean sound but then it clips very easily on loud songs. Someone said that with the cloudlifter you only need the irig pre to be about halfway which is plenty. I looked it up and cloudlifter is 25db of gain or “clean gain” not sure what that means. And the irig pre is 40db gain (i guess when maxed). So that would mean the irig would have to be almost all the way up to get to 60 right? But everywhere it says sm7b needs 60db clean gain to run at its best. So my question is how come everyone says that setup is perfectly fine. Shouldn’t i be getting a rane ms1 or something so I can get to 60 without having to go up much on the irig? Also was wondering is focusrite the same thing as this irig or is it better somehow. Thanks A TON whoever can answer these questions.

Someone more knowledgeable will be along shortly, but if you manage to clip the input without the cloud lifter, you have enough gain. A more powerful signal won’t solve that, as you’ve already hit the maximum level your preamp can handle.

[Mike Stranks]

Welcome!

To what level are you trying to record in your DAW? You should be aiming for a maximum of about -12dB on the loudest sections of songs etc. If your audio interface can deliver that without noisy artefacts you dodn't need any sort of additional inline preamp.

[shufflebeat]

It may be you could do with a headphone amp and get used to the recording levels you have.

[Arpangel]

Just a question, what mic are you using?

[The Elf]

it clips very easily on loud songs...

Then you're simply recording too loudly - and you already have sufficient gain. As others have said, a target peak of -12dBFS is ideal (I typically suggest -10dBFS...), but beware the extra volume that vocalists find as soon as the red light goes on.

[musiciandude011]

Wait I thought the purpose of an extra inline preamp is to boost so that the second preamp doesn’t have to be all the way up where it clips and you get the full sound of the mic. Are you saying it will clip no matter what even if the signal is higher from the first preamp? I am using an sm7b. The thing is it will not clip if I keep the gain lower around 8 or 7, but then the sound is so ridiculously low people can’t even hear it through their phone and it also sounds distant. When I put the gain to almost 10 the sound is so much better and clearer it picks up everything more, but it clips. Right now the only way to get a good sound is to be just below 10 and be the perfect distance away, is that how its supposed to be? And the further away you go the less detail you get. I figured the cloudlifter would make it so I can be a little further away and still get a clean sound or get closer and not clipS So i thought thats why you need to boost the raw signal first with a cloudlifter. I thought the clipping is because putting the irig setting all the way up is too much for the irig to handle and it goes red. I thought the purpose is you have to boost the signal first and then the irig wont have too much to handle because it wont be all the way up. Is that not correct? Again the sites don’t make sense because they say everywhere sm7b needs 60db clean gain but irig only is 40 at max so why would it clip if its not the irig. I see other people singing loud closely into the mic and it not clipping and I am not even doing hard rock. So i will try cloudlifter hopefully the irig doesn’t just suck because then I would need to get focusrite also. I think you’re right about the monitoring but the irig monitor is very low through headphones.

[musiciandude011]

Headphone amp is a great suggestion I will use that and give cloudlifter a try (can always return it). Monitoring is definitely the key I gave up too soon on it. You guys are good.

[musiciandude011]

Hello. So I am planning on getting a cloudlifter to plug into an irig pre hd to iphone for recording my acoustic songs. Right now I have to put the irig pre at almost max to get a clean sound but then it clips very easily on loud songs. Someone said that with the cloudlifter you only need the irig pre to be about halfway which is plenty. I looked it up and cloudlifter is 25db of gain or “clean gain” not sure what that means. And the irig pre is 40db gain (i guess when maxed). So that would mean the irig would have to be almost all the way up to get to 60 right? But everywhere it says sm7b needs 60db clean gain to run at its best. So my question is how come everyone says that setup is perfectly fine. Shouldn’t i be getting a rane ms1 or something so I can get to 60 without having to go up much on the irig? Also was wondering is focusrite the same thing as this irig or is it better somehow. Thanks A TON whoever can answer these questions.

Someone more knowledgeable will be along shortly, but if you manage to clip the input without the cloud lifter, you have enough gain. A more powerful signal won’t solve that, as you’ve already hit the maximum level your preamp can handle.

Is there something better than irig that can attach to iphone that can handle more gain without clipping?

[resistorman]

The iRig HD would appear to be a guitar interface.

[musiciandude011]

The iRig HD would appear to be a guitar interface.

No it works for vocals i have the irig pre hd 2. Its a mic interface.

[James Perrett]

Is there something better than irig that can attach to iphone that can handle more gain without clipping?

You are missing the point here. If the input is clipping you don't need any more gain on the input. Buying a Cloudlifter will be a waste of money. You need to work out why your recordings are too quiet. It may be that you are comparing your recordings to compressed professional recordings where the levels are adjusted after the recording to match the target level.

[The Elf]

As above - you don't need more gain. You just need to record at a lower level!

[Mike Stranks]

In as simple a way as possible I reiterate what others have said, :

You don't need more gain.

The issue is with the recorded sound as laid down in your DAW, phone or whatever. It's the recorded sound that you need to be looking at - and processing - not your input configuration.

[Mike Stranks]

In as simple a way as possible I reiterate what others have said:

You don't need more gain

Your issues are with the recorded sound, not with the input configuration.

Start thinking about processing your recorded sound to achieve your desired solution.

And do take note of what we've said about the level at which your recordings. They could be too 'loud'.

[Hugh Robjohns]

Wait I thought the purpose of an extra inline preamp is to boost so that the second preamp doesn’t have to be all the way up where it clips and you get the full sound of the mic.

You've got the right stick, but you're holding it by the wrong end!

Clipping occurs when the signal level is too big for the electronics to handle. This might be because the signal coming into the preamp is too big, or it might be because the preamp is boosting the signal too much (gain too high) and it is either overloading itself, or the subsequent element in the signal path (such as the A-D converter).

If there is no clipping with a low gain setting, the input signal is not too big. If it clips when you turn the gain up the clipping is being caused by setting the preamp gain too high. You're sending too much signal into the A-D converter.

If you have enough gain on hand in the preamp to drive the signal into clipping -- as you clearly do -- you don't need to boost the input signal any further with a Cloudlifter (or similar).

All that will happen if you add a Cloudlifter is that you'll get clipping when you turn the iRig preamp gain to 5 (for example) instead of 10. And you will turn it to 5 because the signal still won't be loud enough in your headphones!

Are you saying it will clip no matter what even if the signal is higher from the first preamp?

Yes.

I am using an sm7b. The thing is it will not clip if I keep the gain lower around 8 or 7, but then the sound is so ridiculously low people can’t even hear it through their phone and it also sounds distant.

Great -- so you know how to make a clean recording -- set the gain to 7 or 8. And you don't need to waste money on a Cloudlifter.

The real problems you have are that the mic signal doesn't sound loud enough to you through your local monitoring while recording at a sensible level, and it doesn't sound as loud as commercial recordings to your friends when they play the files.

These are separate issues and need to be addressed separately.

To improve your local monitoring volume you either need more sensitive headphones, or an external headphone amp of some kind. That way, you'll be able to hear yourself at your preferred headphone level when the iRig preamp gain is set to 7 or 8 and the mic signal is peaking -10dBFS or so in your clean recording.

To make the recording sound like other commercial files, for your audience, you need to process the raw recording like commercial recording companies do.

Basically, that means it needs to be compressed and (possibly) limited, and you do that using a Digital Audio Workstation (DAW) software package of some kind. Most people do that in a computer, but there may be an iPhone app that can help. Garageband might be a good place to start.

Set the compressor ratio at 2:1 or 3:1, medium Attack, 300ms Release (or auto), and adjust the Threshold until you're seeing up to 4-6dB of compression on the louder bits. You can adjust the MakeUp Gain to raise the overall level to just below 0dBFS, although that might be better achieved using a limiter instead.

Right now the only way to get a good sound is to be just below 10 and be the perfect distance away, is that how its supposed to be?

It's exactly the way I'd expect it to be from a raw mic recording.

I thought the clipping is because putting the irig setting all the way up is too much for the irig to handle and it goes red.

It is too much for the iRig. You are dialling in so much gain so make the voice seem loud enough in your headphones that you are overloading the A-D converter.

If you added a Cloudlifter exactly the same thing would happen, but with the iRig gain at 5 (or something like that) instead of 10.

I thought the purpose is you have to boost the signal first and then the irig wont have too much to handle because it wont be all the way up. Is that not correct?

Yes, it's not correct!

The critical element here is the total signal level reaching the A-D converter. Clearly, adding 40dB of gain in the iRig is enough to overload the A-D converter with the signal from your mic.

So adding 25dB of gain first with a Cloudlifter means you'll overload the converter with just 15dB of gain from the iRig.

The problem is that you are actively clipping the converter just to get the signal to sound loud enough in your headphones. So adding more gain earlier on in the signal path won't actually help! You already have more than enough gain!

Again the sites don’t make sense because they say everywhere sm7b needs 60db clean gain but irig only is 40 at max so why would it clip if its not the irig.

Context is all! In a professional studio setup, the A-D converters typically need a huge signal level before clipping, and to get the signal from an SM7b to peak around -10dBFS at the converter you really will need at least 60dB of gain, and maybe more, depending on how loud the source is.

However, your recording system is very different, being based around an iPhone and iRig which has a very much more sensitive A-D converter. Consequently, it needs a much lower input level to reach -10dBFS and, clearly, the available 40dB in the iRig is more than enough in that context.

I see other people singing loud closely into the mic and it not clipping...

Again, you need to understand the context and how the equipment is being used.

[ef37a]

I would just like to add...
Just because a pre amp is noisy does not mean it also has a lot of headroom!

Dave.

[musiciandude011]

Wait I thought the purpose of an extra inline preamp is to boost so that the second preamp doesn’t have to be all the way up where it clips and you get the full sound of the mic.

You've got the right stick, but you're holding it by the wrong end!

Clipping occurs when the signal level is too big for the electronics to handle. This might be because the signal coming into the preamp is too big, or it might be because the preamp is boosting the signal too much (gain too high) and it is either overloading itself, or the subsequent element in the signal path (such as the A-D converter).

If there is no clipping with a low gain setting, the input signal is not too big. If it clips when you turn the gain up the clipping is being caused by setting the preamp gain too high. You're sending too much signal into the A-D converter.

If you have enough gain on hand in the preamp to drive the signal into clipping -- as you clearly do -- you don't need to boost the input signal any further with a Cloudlifter (or similar).

All that will happen if you add a Cloudlifter is that you'll get clipping when you turn the iRig preamp gain to 5 (for example) instead of 10. And you will turn it to 5 because the signal still won't be loud enough in your headphones!

Are you saying it will clip no matter what even if the signal is higher from the first preamp?

Yes.

I am using an sm7b. The thing is it will not clip if I keep the gain lower around 8 or 7, but then the sound is so ridiculously low people can’t even hear it through their phone and it also sounds distant.

Great -- so you know how to make a clean recording -- set the gain to 7 or 8. And you don't need to waste money on a Cloudlifter.

The real problems you have are that the mic signal doesn't sound loud enough to you through your local monitoring while recording at a sensible level, and it doesn't sound as loud as commercial recordings to your friends when they play the files.

These are separate issues and need to be addressed separately.

To improve your local monitoring volume you either need more sensitive headphones, or an external headphone amp of some kind. That way, you'll be able to hear yourself at your preferred headphone level when the iRig preamp gain is set to 7 or 8 and the mic signal is peaking -10dBFS or so in your clean recording.

To make the recording sound like other commercial files, for your audience, you need to process the raw recording like commercial recording companies do.

Basically, that means it needs to be compressed and (possibly) limited, and you do that using a Digital Audio Workstation (DAW) software package of some kind. Most people do that in a computer, but there may be an iPhone app that can help. Garageband might be a good place to start.

Set the compressor ratio at 2:1 or 3:1, medium Attack, 300ms Release (or auto), and adjust the Threshold until you're seeing up to 4-6dB of compression on the louder bits. You can adjust the MakeUp Gain to raise the overall level to just below 0dBFS, although that might be better achieved using a limiter instead.

Right now the only way to get a good sound is to be just below 10 and be the perfect distance away, is that how its supposed to be?

It's exactly the way I'd expect it to be from a raw mic recording.

I thought the clipping is because putting the irig setting all the way up is too much for the irig to handle and it goes red.

It is too much for the iRig. You are dialling in so much gain so make the voice seem loud enough in your headphones that you are overloading the A-D converter.

If you added a Cloudlifter exactly the same thing would happen, but with the iRig gain at 5 (or something like that) instead of 10.

I thought the purpose is you have to boost the signal first and then the irig wont have too much to handle because it wont be all the way up. Is that not correct?

Yes, it's not correct!

The critical element here is the total signal level reaching the A-D converter. Clearly, adding 40dB of gain in the iRig is enough to overload the A-D converter with the signal from your mic.

So adding 25dB of gain first with a Cloudlifter means you'll overload the converter with just 15dB of gain from the iRig.

The problem is that you are actively clipping the converter just to get the signal to sound loud enough in your headphones. So adding more gain earlier on in the signal path won't actually help! You already have more than enough gain!

Again the sites don’t make sense because they say everywhere sm7b needs 60db clean gain but irig only is 40 at max so why would it clip if its not the irig.

Context is all! In a professional studio setup, the A-D converters typically need a huge signal level before clipping, and to get the signal from an SM7b to peak around -10dBFS at the converter you really will need at least 60dB of gain, and maybe more, depending on how loud the source is.

However, your recording system is very different, being based around an iPhone and iRig which has a very much more sensitive A-D converter. Consequently, it needs a much lower input level to reach -10dBFS and, clearly, the available 40dB in the iRig is more than enough in that context.

I see other people singing loud closely into the mic and it not clipping...

Again, you need to understand the context and how the equipment is being used.

I understand what you’re saying. I will try to get those settings going but I’m not sure the iPhone version of garageband will allow me to do that much settings, and also I don’t mix so I want to video at the same time. Will check it out. A few questions I have are without the level at 9-10 am I going to have a very dull recording with no detail or do you think compressing it will somehow allow me to boost it in garageband? I’ll give it a try either way. In a professional setup how do they get such better AD converters. Is there nothing I can attach inline or some kind of converter or equipment inline I can attach to achieve that. Or can I just buy like a cheap laptop and then some other piece of equipment to get that without going through the phone? Like a mixing board and a laptop? I don’t really know what an AD is or what it would look like. I will try and achieve those levels and update with questions. I did not buy the cloudlifter. Irig wasn’t cheap why do they give you a five dollar AD converter that’s ridiculous.

[James Perrett]

In a professional setup they work at much lower levels than the final mastered level. When you listen to music on your phone or play a commercial video you are hearing something that has had its level boosted to within an inch of its life. When this music is being recorded it will be recorded at a much lower level and then only brought up to its final level by the use of compression and limiting at a later stage.

If you want your recordings to sound clear as you are making them then you need to turn the headphone volume right up to compensate for the lower working level. Recordings always sound clearer and fuller when they are louder - that's down to psychoacoustics.

[RichardT]

It’s a lot easier to work on a laptop with GarageBand than on a phone, particularly if you want to work with video. The iRig is probablyOK as a pre-amp and AD converter. If you have a laptop you can connect the iRig directly to it, you don’t need the phone.

In GarageBand you’ll be able to raise the levels of quiet recordings, and use compression to bring the quiet parts up to the level of the louder parts.