Kate Bush - Running up that Hill - main synth sound

[Jonnypopisical]

You may be right - I'll have too listen again.....

I'l post a link up when it's done - although it's not going to be a straight copy of the original (what's the point) but hopefully Bush fans will approve.

JP

[Peter Conz Connelly]

... But I couldn't get anywhere near the tom sound - none of the toms or tom-like sample in the IIx set I have could get me in the ball park, evening with quite a bit of processing. Can' rule it out, of course, we never know what they did. They might just have tried the library toms, thought they were rubbish, and sampled their own toms and used those...

Funny you should say that 'cos on this Drumkit11 (or Drumkit13) preset on the Series III... the one I was convinced has a conection with RUTH... the Tom (from memory) sounds just like the one on RUTH. I've heard this sound on other tracks too, particularly stuff produced by Andy Richards who used a lot of III.

There was a IIL (between IIX and III) that looked like a IIx / III hybrid. I wonder if Bush somehow had access or contributed to Fairlight sound libraries before the actual III (and additional libraries, which you could subscribe to) came out.

I'll see if I can get access to them drums sounds... I really wish I'd recorded my libs before I sold my III. I started but it was taking forever, so ditched the idea. Arrrgggghhhhh!!!! I still know many Series III owners, so will see what I can do.

P

[muzines]

Funny you should say that 'cos on this Drumkit11 (or Drumkit13) preset on the Series III... the one I was convinced has a conection with RUTH... the Tom (from memory) sounds just like the one on RUTH. I've heard this sound on other tracks too, particularly stuff produced by Andy Richards who used a lot of III.

How reliable is your memory..?

There was a IIL (between IIX and III) that looked like a IIx / III hybrid. I wonder if Bush somehow had access or contributed to Fairlight sound libraries before the actual III (and additional libraries, which you could subscribe to) came out.

Interesting... dunno. Certainly back in these days, the quality of the libraries was every bit as important as owning the hardware, and users certainly did contribute their own sounds (especially as back then, sampling was far simpler a process than todays multi-articulation multi-keyrange/velocity sample sessions...

I'll see if I can get access to them drums sounds... I really wish I'd recorded my libs before I sold my III. I started but it was taking forever, so ditched the idea. Arrrgggghhhhh!!!! I still know many Series III owners, so will see what I can do.

That would be cool!

[Peter Conz Connelly]

I'm gonna dig out the album and have a good listen on my studio monitors ASAP. I could be eating my words here, so I have a plate and plenty of salt to hand. lol.

Will keep you up-to-date with the sounds... someone's already on the case

P

[Peter Conz Connelly]

... with regards to memory, often it's photographic. Other times, it's the pits. lol.

P

[muzines]

The main reason I have a hunch that it *wasn't* the Fairlight doing the drums is because I have a feeling I've seen in interviews references to Del programming the drum machine, and thinking they used a Linn drum. And having a quick look before I started to second guess myself, I just found this online from a Q magazine interview:

"For the most part, time has been kind to Hounds of Love. Only the clanking, robotic omnipresence of Palmer's Linn drum machine (the pulse of every over-produced record of its decade) dates the sound, its size tens trampling all over the insistent opener Running Up that Hill (A Deal with God)."

Hey, a music magazine review, doesn't particularly mean much for technical accuracy of course, but it's what my subconscious is telling me...

I still reckon it was a more conventional drum machine doing the drums, with the Fairlight put to more creative uses than just using it's limited resources to do what another piece of hardware could do equally well. And Linn's were still popular and fashionable and the sound of pop, to a certain extent...

Kate's own words, talking about Hounds of Love:

"This takes us into The Morning Fog. "Morning Fog" is the symbol of light and hope. It's the end of the side, and if you ever have any control over endings they should always, I feel, have some kind of light in there. This was originally written to a Linn drum machine.

I wrote, on the Fairlight, an instrumental piece of music using the sample of an acoustic guitar. I then later wrote the song on top of this instrumental, building up the voices in layers. The piece I'd written on the Fairlight was transcribed by Dave Lawson for an acoustic guitar player, and I felt that really one of the best people to play this was John Williams, a superb classical guitarist who I had met on a couple of occasions before when I was working at Abbey Road. This seemed like the perfect opportunity to ask him if he'd like to play on a track. We added Del's fretless bass, Kevin on synth, and built up the backing vocals; then Pad layered up Appalachian fiddles and fujare. We kept the guide vocal as the master voice and mixed up the last track on the album."

So, they definitely had a Linn of some flavour in the studio... (a bit early for a 9000 too*).
So time to check out those Linndrum/LM1/2 samples again...

*Edit: No, Linn 9000 was produced in '84-'86 apparently, so it's not too early.

And then this was interesting:

"Palmer programmed the record’s skeletal pulse on a Lynn drum machine, and those tracks were often saved and used and overdubbed by drummers playing live to the static beat – this is really the groundwork for the unique sound on Hounds of Love. It’s Stuart Elliott who plays on the majestic, holy “Running up that Hill”, which opens the album and made the exceptionally British Kate Bush a star in the US. Elliott truly found her internal timings. “His drumming is the most emotional I know,” acknowledged the delighted artist. “He’s always interested in the songs and the lyrics and has a way of creating the right mood for a track."

My hunch was that the toms sound too good to be an early drum machine. Toms were notoriously bad on those things, getting realistic tom fills was almost impossible. The above paragraph seems to back this up.

Gut feeling: Linn kick and snare, real toms (or at least, real toms with Linn toms underneath). The timing is pretty loose for an early drum machine...

Some other snippets my google fu has turned up:

Opening song on the album Hounds Of Love. Originally titled A Deal With God, this song began when Kate asked Del to program a drum machine rhythm for her. She used the Fairlight to produce a droning sound over the rhythm, and from there the song practically wrote itself.

[Zukan]

Did she ever get to the top of the hill then........or still running?



I'm in one of those 'shroom' moods today....Friday n' all that.

[Peter Conz Connelly]

Did she ever get to the top of the hill then........or still running?



I'm in one of those 'shroom' moods today....Friday n' all that.

I love that Friday 'shroom mood

P

[ramthelinefeed]

Was reading this thread with interest.

I have to say that to me, the 'yelpy' sound Ms. Bush got to do that melody on "Running Up that Hill" always sounded to me like it was essentially the same Fairlight string (cello) sample that she'd already been using for years - for example is it not basically the same things as is on "Army Dreamers" on Never for Ever? (just processed and pimped more here)

[Peter Conz Connelly]

Can the Fairlight not apply pitch bend to a sample in the playing? Not a facetious question, I genuinely don't know. I've seen one in the flesh but not been lucky (?) enough to use it...

I would guess that's what she did, in all honesty. I play a lot with pitch bend to sweep notes.

P

[muzines]

I have to say that to me, the 'yelpy' sound Ms. Bush got to do that melody on "Running Up that Hill" always sounded to me like it was essentially the same Fairlight string (cello) sample that she'd already been using for years - for example is it not basically the same things as is on "Army Dreamers" on Never for Ever? (just processed and pimped more here)

The early albums were done on the first Fairlights into the UK, series 1's. A few years down the line, she got her own Fairlight II. Like many digital synths/keyboards of the mid 80's, the presets were used extensively, especially in the case of the Fairlights/Emulators - and it's not like the Fairlight library contained *thousands* of sounds.

However, there are quite a few string sounds in the Fairlight library (twenty or so in all I think) and she certainly made use of them - those kinds of strings were popularly used at that time (look at the Emulator II's Arco and Marcato strings - West End Girls etc - they were used everywhere too) as you could get a more real string sound and get away from string machine/analog strings/DX7 weedy strings thing - so it's not surprising you'd use them if you had access to them...

So whether it was only that patch she liked and used I can't say, but she certainly got a lot of use out of the Fairlight library...

[arkieboy]

I think I read at the time that the essential element of the voxy pad sound was with a Quantec room simulator - AFAIR it had a 'frozen reverb' setting where you could play something into it and it would endlessly play the reverb of the sound back to you. Fit's with Desmond's observations well... a frozen, grainy reverb tail of Fairlight Arr1

Splendid programming BTW!

Steve

[muzines]

a frozen, grainy reverb tail of Fairlight Arr1

Not Arr1 on the pad - Cello2 from my observations, as it's the only sound that gives that character.

Interesting on the Quantec, thanks. Another piece of the puzzle that would seem to fit nicely...

[Iain_TC]

...only other offerings I've spotted so far apart from Nostalgia are Cult Sampler and this offering from Pro-Rec. I'm kind of surprised there aren't more.

I use this in Reason and it's really very good: Power FX CMI Legacy (it's well worth also downloading the Supremacy ReFill which adds extra patches and some sounds from non-Fairlight synths).

I'd like to back up the theory that the drone was something from the Fairlight through a Quantec Room Simulator with the reverb time set to infinite. I reckon quite a few drones and textures on Peter Gabriel albums were done that way too.

[nathanscribe]

Desmond, if you read this, how much pitch bend did you apply to the sample for the melody part? I spent a while last night on my humble W-30 trying to get this thing in the ballpark and didn't meet with much success. My Cello2 sounds like Army Dreamers, not Running...

[muzines]

Desmond, if you read this, how much pitch bend did you apply to the sample for the melody part?

Like I say, I think the original was probably played with real pitch bend, but when I was playing with it, I used an envelope to give a scooping pitch attack. This is a key constituent to the melody part.

How much did I use? Numbers doesn't really help as different instruments have different envelopes, but basically, I used as much as was necessary for the sound to feel like it was getting in in the ballpark... Pitch envelopes you are primarily concerned with the envelope depth (ie, how much pitch the envelope will bend over -typically for this you are looking at somewhere between 1 and 2 semitones I guess) and the attack and decay times to get the length of the bend right.

Can the W30 route an envelope to pitch?

[nathanscribe]

somewhere between 1 and 2 semitones I guess [...] and the attack and decay times to get the length of the bend right.

Can the W30 route an envelope to pitch?

Not as far as I'm aware, but it can 'peak' a synced LFO to pitch mod... which means you get an initial sweep a bit like the 'glide' on some old analogues. It follows the LFO wave (which is retriggered from zero at note-on) till the wave hits the top (or bottom, if you set it negative) and stays there. I don't believe there's an offset built into the LFO level. So what I'd probably have to do is use that LFO peak feature for, say, a couple of semitones of bend, and offest the played pitch by the same - or drop the pitch of the sample tone by that amount.

I suppose the other route is to add a pitch envelope in Logic.

I'll give it a go later.

Must be mad.

[muzines]

Hmm, probably won't give a decent result doing it that way...

The W30 is pretty limited anyway, so yeah, give it a go in software where we're all used to having virtually limitless resources these days...

[Fibes]

Desmond, you really should get your own section in the magazine. Instead of the engineers/producers/artists explaining to us how they came up with these other worldly sounds, we'd have you explaining how to reverse-engineer them.

One excellent and enlightening thread.

[Peter Conz Connelly]

One excellent and enlightening thread.

+1

[giorgio]

the lead sounds like a fairly simple synth sound to me, which could have been made with some of the "analog" samples on the fairlight, with the proper envelopes applied of course. I made a patch on my jupiter 6 along with an echo of course, and it pretty much nails the sound.

The envelopes are the key here. the proper pitch dip and VCA control really seems to make a difference, and this is the issue with the previous example. don't get me wrong it is decent, but with a little more finesse on the envelopes it really locks into place. I couldn't get the envelopes correct on my MPC1000 but the JP6 was much easier.

I can try to record/upload it tonight if anyone still cares about this thread.

[muzines]

the lead sounds like a fairly simple synth sound to me, which could have been made with some of the "analog" samples on the fairlight, with the proper envelopes applied of course. I made a patch on my jupiter 6 along with an echo of course, and it pretty much nails the sound.

I disagree, for all the reasons I posted above. But I'm happy to be proven wrong.

I can try to record/upload it tonight if anyone still cares about this thread.

Sure - go for it!

[Tony Raven]

This question has been bothering me all damned week. I remember how totally floored I was when I first heard the tune twenty-some years ago (yeah, late to the dance as usual).

All's I really know about the Fairlight is from Kate Bush & Peter Gabriel, so I can't comment properly in that regard.

That signature "trumpet" sound is interesting. My memory had it down as a sped-up low brass sound, but on relistening that isn't quite right. At a couple of points it seems to evolve from a (for lack of better term) synth-brass sound to more like a strings pad. I'd have to dig up the CD & put the phones on to get deeper into it, but it's definitely two tones at least, so it could be e-brass for the main body with the e-string at the top.

The "ahhs" that run through as a ground remind me very much of some of the sounds from Shriekback's Oil & Gold, where I'm fair certain they used a Fairlight, DX-1, & JP-8 -- far above my remit to sort all that out. Though I'm guessing that a well-done interleaving of samples, synthetic voices, & actual singersmight be difficult to differentiate with just a helpless little stereo track.

Nothing final from here, but it makes me want to try emulating it, not to mention renewing my appreciation of Kate Bush (she's a month older than me, fwiw).

[muzines]

Did you read through this thread? The question has been categorically answered for me. All of the pieces make sense. Try it out for yourself.

[Tomás Mulcahy]

Desmond, you are spot on. Well done sir! I played around with the "Infinity" setting on my Lexicon LXP-15II, and it does a similar thing except that the tone gets duller as it goes on. So I guess you could do the Quantec thing with any reverb?

What amazes me is that, dry, this pitch mod Fairlight cello sounds unusable. Goes to show what a creative lady she is.

Another slight problem is depending on which Fairlight library you have, there are two sounds called "Cello 2".

always sounded to me like it was essentially the same Fairlight string (cello) sample that she'd already been using for years

Well spotted sir. Actually it's a different cello sample, but the Fairlight II makes then all sound kinda similar. As Paul Wiffen once described it "a nasal honk". The one on "Army Dreamers" is called "Quartet" IIRC.

[muzines]

Desmond, you are spot on. Well done sir!

I played around with the "Infinity" setting on my Lexicon LXP-15II, and it does a similar thing except that the tone gets duller as it goes on. So I guess you could do the Quantec thing with any reverb?

Yeah, or you could always sample and loop the reverb tail. That reverb pad is a wonderful sound imo...

What amazes me is that, dry, this pitch mod Fairlight cello sounds unusable. Goes to show what a creative lady she is.

*Absolutely* +1 on this. I'm not sure I could do anything that sounded good on a Fairlight II, and yet she made amazing use of it, really digging into it's strengths and it's quirks to find her voice. People imo these days do not do nearly enough "voice finding" with modern instruments, it's too easy to use everybody else's...

Another slight problem is depending on which Fairlight library you have, there are two sounds called "Cello 2".

Ah, didn't know about this. I only used the Fairlight samples I had available to me, including stuff I'd found around the net - I've never had any real Fairlight time. Anyway, it was enough to solve the problem for me which had bugged me ever since a young synth-loving kid heard that song and fell in love with it...

always sounded to me like it was essentially the same Fairlight string (cello) sample that she'd already been using for years

Well spotted sir. Actually it's a different cello sample, but the Fairlight II makes then all sound kinda similar. As Paul Wiffen once described it "a nasal honk". The one on "Army Dreamers" is called "Quartet" IIRC.

Once you dig through the Fairlight library you do a lot of "Aha!" and "Ooh, *that* was what it was.." and "Oh, I thought that record was something really creative but it's just someone elses sample"... etc

It's one of the joys of getting access to these sounds, I think, if you're at all synth nerds like us...

[Tomás Mulcahy]

Once you dig through the Fairlight library you do a lot of "Aha!" and "Ooh, *that* was what it was.." and "Oh, I thought that record was something really creative but it's just someone elses sample"... etc

It's one of the joys of getting access to these sounds, I think, if you're at all synth nerds like us...

This is true, it is fun to discover these things. I don't own a Fairlight, did you try the Fairlight iPhone app? It's interesting how some of the sounds are looped.

I have the IIx library from several sources, including disk images from an acquaintance who owns a few Fairlights. I've also got the series 3 library, and almost everything that was commercially for the Emulator II, as well as the complete EIIIx library I had when I owned and Emu ESI4000, and the Yamaha TX16W. Almost all imported into Kontakt. EMXP makes soundfonts of EII images, so they go into Kontakt with minimal pain. There is no such utility for the series 3, so I've not imported all of them. They're actually not that great, it was basically a posh ROMpler IMO. Whereas the IIx has this great sound like nothing else. It's worth trawling through the WAVs with that one.

Next little project is to import the box of Ensoniq Mirage disks I have.

[muzines]

Some of the early Roland stuff is interesting too. The EII library is great, so much recognisable stuff in there, including the sounds which were crucial to the fabulous score in my all-time number 1 film - was wonderful to discover that stuff.

What I'd really love to play with is the Synclavier library though...

[Tomás Mulcahy]

The toms again I couldn't get near, at least with a quick play and my Linn9000 EXS/Ultrabeat kit

I've done the drums, exactly, using Linn 9000 samples. These ones that are taken directly from the EPROM. Not much processing at all really, just some major detuning of the tom. Of course my blog has decided that it can't write new directories, so the upload of evidence will be later today.

[muzines]

I've done the drums, exactly, using Linn 9000 samples. These ones that are taken directly from the EPROM. Not much processing at all really, just some major detuning of the tom. Of course my blog has decided that it can't write new directories, so the upload of evidence will be later today.

Cool. I have a Linn9000 sample kit to hand (with one tom) but although I played with it, I couldn't get it close to the record. Given that the kick and snare are clearly drum machiney, and that we know she used a Linn (at least when writing) and that we know a drummer came and recorded drums on it, it leads me to surmise that the toms would have originally been a Linn pattern but we probably replaced or at least overdubbed with real drumming on the record. There's at least two parts, with a third coming in in the middle8 and some big tom fills as well, so I think it's most likely a combination of the Linn pattern and real overdubs.

I'd be interested to hear how close you got...