there is a fine line where I feel like I'm fitting in all the words comfortably, but maybe the song is a little too slow in someplaces
You can stay at the same tempo, but double time a percussion part, to make it feel faster, e.g. if the drums are in 8/8 time then play 16 beats of shaker in each bar.
Last edited by MOF on Fri Jan 03, 2020 11:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
there is a fine line where I feel like I'm fitting in all the words comfortably, but maybe the song is a little too slow in someplaces
You can stay at the same tempo, but double time a percussion part, to make it feel faster, e.g. if the drums are in 8/8 time then play 16 beats of shaker in each bar.
Dude, yeah. Really glad that you mentioned that. So true. My drummer was telling me that what will make the music feel much faster or slower than a one or two bpm difference would be how the other instruments are playing (in front of or behind the beat). I've also noticed that distortion makes things feel faster, as well...
As I spend more time with the songs -recording and practicing them -I'm discovering that there really is no need to make myself uncomfortable as a singer. There really is no reason to rush something. I'm leaning towards just giving myself enough room to fit in all the words and enunciate comfortably and even though the song might seem a little slow to me initially, I think it will be fine on the record...
Thank you to every one who has responded and please, if anyone else has more wisdom to dispense by all means please do so!
CS70 wrote:About the rehearsing, can you say the lyrics without even concentrating about them? If you're still at the phase where you have to read, or sing piece by piece or you need to make an effort to remember what then next verse is (or any effort whatsoever in remembering the lyrics) you aren't yet at the point in which your current "comfortable" will begin to feel "slow"
T.M.A. wrote:What I'm noticing when I'm singing along to these, is that there is a fine line where I feel like I'm fitting in all the words comfortably, but maybe the song is a little too slow in someplaces, but comfortable in others
For this.. are you the author of the lyrics? If so, I suspect you've just gotta rework them.
Honestly, to me writing good lyrics - meaningful, with the right sound and that can actually be sung - is the hardest thing, much more than making new music. There's a lot of things that have to click at the same time, and you need them all!
There are of course variations, and practice can allow you to sing some stuff which initially feels hard, and sometimes you can learn a different way to emphasize or couple words to make things work, but the problem you're discussing hints to the fact that the lyrics aren't yet good enough.
In my band's last song, for example, I really had to work here and there to get the lyrics to a point where they could be sang, and even then some parts are at the limit and I had to develop and practice a specific interpretation to make sure they could come out clearly and in tempo.
If you're not the one who penned the lyrics, it's a good idea to work with the author to see if he can find alternative phrasing that better fit the song?
Best of luck!
I don't think there's anything wrong with the lyrics. I wrote them myself along with all the rest of the song and they flowed very naturally... Things are just different when you're singing along to a song that is being laid out to a click track. Places where you might speed up or slow down naturally are now subject to the click track, so one has to adjust. And I think that is the main difficulty I'm facing with this whole process...
Some of the songs are over 6 minutes long and change tempos five or six times within the song, so this fact adds to the difficulty of the situation...
I'm wondering: When bass and drums are added, will they tend to make things feel faster or slower? I am noticing the lack of bass and drums as I lay these songs out...
Thanks for your very involved and considerate responses...
Maybe just try programming up some basic drum rhythms first and then sing along to those. You may find it easier than just using a click. If you are using a tempo map for the song, then you may find the tempo changes easier with drums rather than a click.
Wonks wrote:Maybe just try programming up some basic drum rhythms first and then sing along to those. You may find it easier than just using a click. If you are using a tempo map for the song, then you may find the tempo changes easier with drums rather than a click.
Yep, yep -That is definitely a frist class suggestion! Really am noticing how much I go off of the drums as a vocalist recently. They almost fill in parts of the vocals in way -So you don't have to work so hard as a vocalist... The bass too. You really notice when they're not there...
I've never programmed drums before and have always struggled with the technological side of recording music. I actually hired a guy and programmed nice midi drums to the whole album, but they were done at the wrong tempos, so my aim was to get these songs at the right tempos first, then tell the person I was working working with the correct tempos and then he could send the me the midi drums with the right tempos...
Open to suggestions for easy ways to program drums myself. I really suck at this kind of stuff... My rig is just roland quad capture with an sm57 straight into Audacity. Which is actually very functional for me... I like Audacity a lot and am familiar with it...
The songs are getting a lot easier to pin down the more time I spend with them. The next thing that I'm going to try is bumping up certain parts of the songs 1-2 bpms. I suspect this will make a huge difference in the feel of things. I've read a lot of producers do this (speed up the chorus just a hair or whatever...) and I'm noticing that certain parts of the song I like at one tempo and certain parts I like just a notch faster or slower. I'm recording each song at 3 or 4 different tempos and we'll see what I don't discover with a little cutting and splicing...
This is why I always wait to record my vocals after the full foundation has been laid. Guitar and drums at least, preferably bass too. I like to get most of the instrumentation done and then do the vocal track. It is much easier (to me) than doing vocals first before even the drums (which are what really create the movement of the song) and then having to ask fuss with it.
Get at least a basic template for the song down with guitar and drums or keyboard and drums, whatever you are using, and then do a vocal scratch track over the whole thing in one take. You'll very quickly get a feel for what it should sound like. Then you can go back and edit it, sing parts over, etc. But having the instruments all done first will make your job much easier. Thats why the vocalist is usually the last person to come in to the studio to lay down his part.
James Perrett wrote:Record it without a click to start with and then try matching the tempo to the recording. You can then either re-record with the click or just work to the original recording.
This is my favourite way to decide. There is one lady I play with who is very fussy about tempo and, to be fair, once she's decided on the right one I can almost set the click to whatever she's doing and it won't need tweaking for about 16-24 bars. I'm sure i's common for great players but to me it's a superpower. I tempo map it anyway just to make navigating and editing more streamlined.
For the rest of us mortals it takes a few runs through to find the proper bounce and, as CS70 says, it will usually develop with familiarity although in my experience it's as often to slow down rather than speed up. That could be genre dependent but probably more likely an age thing.
Last edited by shufflebeat on Mon Sep 07, 2020 1:48 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: BPMs for recording...Singers? Taking songs faster or slower...
1. What is comfortable now is gonna be too slow later. Especially with singing, muscle memory applies to breathing, throat, pronounciation and mouth shape and it'll get easier with time. If you can, wait until you have the entire song well rehearsed to decide the tempo of the recording.
Incidentally, that's why many times when you go to a live show the songs are faster than the recordings.
2. Keep in mind that timing depends also on the room you're singing/playing. Especially if it's a reverberant space, the "right" feel depends on when the sound gets back to your ears (even more so if you're talking a few BPM of difference). Especially for drums this is a big factor - drummers adapt to the room reflections without even thinking, so try to practice in the same room where you'll record.
3. If you can't/don't want to rehearse the song so much that it becomes natural before recording it (it is a strategy, even if often is employed when the material is written by others than the singer), you may record the various parts in bits and pieces. I'm not a big fan of the technique but it can be useful at times.
4. Finally, don't sweat it too much. Variations of a few BPMs among different performances are normal for the reasons above - and even within a song it's usually cool to accelerate a little for the more exciting parts - the good bands are the ones which get back down to the original tempo for the verses!
The reason for which it feels it makes a big difference now is most likely because you don't yet have the song pinned down.
I've always had a passion for music. Influenced by the likes of Michelle Branch, Kelly Clarkson, and Mandy Moore; my music style is alternative pop based with a little hint of country.
Re: BPMs for recording...Singers? Taking songs faster or slower...
Hey everyone. It's been a while and I just wanted to come back with my experience...
So far, what has actually worked is to take the songs a good bit slower than i would live. Maybe this is because I have not incorporated the drums yet, but really, making sure that the songs have enough room to breathe has come to matter to me a lot as the listener -especially, I suppose, because the album is intended to be listened to as a whole...
A big thing that pushed me towards taking things slower was getting the bass involved.
I first played the songs all live without a click and then beat mapped those exact tempos, but that was just way too fast for the recording. Not sure why that phenomenon is -Playing things significantly faster when live, but it just is...
Almost done with this process. Thank the Lord.
I just hope that I won't want to take things faster once the drums get involved. Ha! that would suck... i take a lot of cues from the drums as a vocalist and even if the drums are going fast, somehow they kind of fill in the words, so i can adapt, but I think what I finding out works better for the songs as a whole, is for the music to kind of "come to the vocals" rather than trying to chase the song with the vocals. Your mileage may vary. I dunno...
The biggest difference in some areas is around 5-7%. Mostly it's around 2% difference...
Most live players are well aware of the phenomena and accept that songs are usually faster live. I guess it's down to the excitement of live performance and, maybe, the more stripped back arrangements?
Sam Spoons wrote:Most live players are well aware of the phenomena and accept that songs are usually faster live. I guess it's down to the excitement of live performance and, maybe, the more stripped back arrangements?
Yeah, man... I' not sure! Haha!
Interesting that when I sang over the guitar track played live it felt fine, but then I tried to record it to a click track at that same tempo and no way... too fast!
What I'm actually finding is that I'll record at a certain tempo and I'll be like "Oh, no. This is way too slow..." But then when I add vocals and listen back it's fine! Especially when you add bass and a little bit of compression... I always think it's gonna be to slow, but it's fine...
Definitely trending towards taking record songs slower. Definitely...
